Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 02:09:15 pm
http://208.57.228.4/GAW_Models.zip
Enjoy!
Dave
Post by: Karnak on October 06, 2003, 02:16:16 pm
These may come in handy someday.
Post by: Rod O'neal on October 06, 2003, 02:40:53 pm
Post by: Rivaris on October 06, 2003, 02:47:35 pm
Post by: Lepton1 on October 06, 2003, 02:48:02 pm
Post by: Rhaz on October 06, 2003, 02:59:17 pm
Post by: Strafer on October 06, 2003, 03:57:00 pm
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 04:00:59 pm
If anyone wishes to mirror them, please do.
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on October 06, 2003, 04:05:03 pm
Post by: Strafer on October 06, 2003, 04:10:08 pm
Is that... a Wyn base?
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 04:42:55 pm
http://208.57.228.4/GAW_Concepts.zip
and a couple of personal favs:
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: Aldaron on October 06, 2003, 04:46:38 pm
Post by: FireSoul on October 06, 2003, 04:51:34 pm
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 05:01:27 pm
I couldn't find the moc up of the Andro interface, just think
green and yellow and you get the idea.
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: Lepton1 on October 06, 2003, 05:21:13 pm
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 05:39:52 pm
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 05:42:54 pm
I still don't understand why a SFC: OP Gold couln't have been released with these ships AND the SFC1 missions. I'd buy two copies myself... I am very grateful for this peice of GAW that never came to pass.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 05:44:43 pm
way off as they never were added in the game.
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: TOCXOBearslayer on October 06, 2003, 05:57:53 pm
Makes one ponder how open Taldren would be to allowing some of the fine programers we have adding scripts and SQL to the game access to the stuff they need to actually make our own GAW?
Regardless of the answers... thank you for all the effort that has been placed into this product.
Post by: SkyFlyer on October 06, 2003, 06:48:30 pm
im sure some people here have to competance to be able to do this
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 07:01:16 pm
The Klingon Academy Tholians are a bit distorted. I have all of DarkMatrix's KA conversions and their textures, light maps and mod files have been updated. I will get them up soon. I do like the Tholian fighter, frieghter and starbase.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: Aldaron on October 06, 2003, 07:58:17 pm
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 08:44:05 pm
Quote:
Problem with putting them in is that none of the mechanics for the races are there, although the Thloians would only be missing their webs and the ability to pinwheel (big part of their makeup). The Andromedans are missing the displacement device, PA panels, increased batteries (can be simulated I guess), PA panels stopping all tansporting inside side, transporting SS outside.....etc.
These are not insurmountable problems. We may not have the EXACT tools but we can approximate things. Displacement devices can be substituted with Cloaking devices and armor/shields can simulate PA panels. Actual scripted missions can cover some of the missing special effects too (not my area of expertise).
Qapla!
KF
Post by: IndyShark on October 06, 2003, 08:45:59 pm
Thanks
Post by: EmeraldEdge on October 06, 2003, 08:59:04 pm
Post by: 3dot14 on October 06, 2003, 09:03:04 pm
(on the other hand, I think we can also consider these two more nails in GAW's coffin. I mean if Taldren realistically expect to do GaW in the future, they won't give this away...)
Thanks again dave, we must treasure all we get now.
Post by: Mr. Hypergol on October 06, 2003, 09:42:57 pm
Quote:
I mean if Taldren realistically expect to do GaW in the future, they won't give this away...)
I don't think this necessarily means a nail in the coffin to SFC or GAW in the long run.
Honestly, if SFC is continued in the future it's likely to be far enough into the future (at least a few years minimum) to warrent a totally new graphics engine and a complete overhaul of the code anyway. From Taldren's perspective it's highly unlikely they would use much from the previous games including this unpublished material. In other words, this stuff wouldn't have been used for GAW anyway now that so much time has passed.
Post by: jualdeaux on October 06, 2003, 09:44:16 pm
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 09:45:29 pm
Don't forget P81's TMP Andromedans and DarkMatrix's kitbashes of them at SFU. These will nicley round out the Taldren Andros that weren't made...
Thanks again Taldren staff!
Qapla!
KF
Post by: James Formo on October 07, 2003, 01:47:42 am
Post by: DarkMatrix on October 07, 2003, 03:15:20 am
hope you do more sfc i tell you now you got a Big fanbase ready to buy
DM
Post by: starforce2 on October 07, 2003, 03:21:57 am
Post by: DarkMatrix on October 07, 2003, 05:43:39 am
Quote:
Now if we can get somebody with .MAX to convert some of the Andromedan models to .MOD format...
The Klingon Academy Tholians are a bit distorted. I have all of DarkMatrix's KA conversions and their textures, light maps and mod files have been updated. I will get them up soon. I do like the Tholian fighter, frieghter and starbase.
Qapla!
KF
all done you find the downloads in the modeling forum
DM
Post by: I_Mudd on October 07, 2003, 07:51:39 am
Maybe this isn't the end of the dream.
We've always thought we could one day go purchase GAW ... and now, for this game engine, it seems like that possibility is near gone. But, thinking "outside the box" for a moment lead me to wonder about a few things. This is purely speculation.
Erik said once he really wanted to produce GAW. He obviously knows how badly we fans would like - no LOVE - this addition to his game. Just how much work was really done? Models were unexpected, at least by me. Sure, you'd need to test results with something, but any model from the existing game could've been used for that. From a financial standpoint, time = $$$, that would seem right; code first, art last. Maybe I'm wrong ...
Now for the big "What if ...?" part. What if models and production art were not all Erik was willing to make available for the fans? (My jaded and cynical side is really making it hard to make this post seriously, but really, what if?) It's not like I'm ungratefull for what has been released. He didn't have to O.K. anything, but for whatever reason, he did. He has my thanks at the very least. His generosity is greatly apprieciated.
Those max file, he knew, would be converted into ship mods and used. No harm there, can't control what the fans do with them. Now if he were to release other "add-ins", perhaps, with a little community effort and a wink and a nod from Taldren, we would indeed have GAW. No law says he can't give the stuff away if he can't profit financially from it.
Ok,ok...It's all wishful thinking and fairy tales. My jaded and cynical side has come back to control this post. This will never happen, as there is no Easter bunny and no code to add. There are no additional UI's for the extra races and no way to add them anyways. There are no ways to include pinwheeling and webs. The game maps will not support the additional Empires...cartels are just a work around. There is no ...
hmmm ... is hope really that dead on this issue? Have we beaten the horse to glue and now stuck fast ...?
[heavysigh.wav]
This is too frustrating and too depressing. I'm going to go breath a little more life into TOS and finish up a model.
I_Mudd.
Post by: Atrahasis on October 07, 2003, 08:49:56 am
Post by: Chris Jones on October 07, 2003, 12:21:04 pm
Time to re-think the TNG Mod for OP with these babies released.
Kudos!!
Post by: Sethan on October 07, 2003, 02:54:37 pm
Thank you gentlemen.
Post by: Captain Krenn on October 07, 2003, 04:54:24 pm
but is there a paticular tool you are supposed to view these with?
Captain "without a clue" Krenn
Post by: Strafer on October 07, 2003, 05:13:11 pm
I know FireSoul has it online at http://klingon.stasis.ca under the sources & utils section...
Post by: jualdeaux on October 07, 2003, 07:08:53 pm
Quote:
Forgive my ignorance,
but is there a paticular tool you are supposed to view these with?
Captain "without a clue" Krenn
You can also get it from Here . Just download the model viewer.
Post by: Toasty0 on October 07, 2003, 07:34:00 pm
Quote:
Forgive my ignorance,
but is there a paticular tool you are supposed to view these with?
Captain "without a clue" Krenn
http://www.toasty0.com/OP_Patch.aspx
Click the Show Me Other SFC stuff button
Post by: Budgie Blade on October 07, 2003, 07:48:23 pm
Thanks for releasing them. Greatly appreciate it!
Post by: Jim on October 07, 2003, 10:57:47 pm
Jim
Post by: Captain Krenn on October 08, 2003, 10:21:20 am
Thanks for the links guys!
These models are awesome!
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 08, 2003, 08:46:23 pm
Anybody notice that the Tholian fighter is flying backwards? That needs to be tweaked.
KF
Post by: Alidar Jarok on October 08, 2003, 09:30:39 pm
Post by: VelvetAcidChrist on October 09, 2003, 01:30:57 am
i hope your´re satisfied now,
cheers
VAC
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 09, 2003, 05:34:33 am
http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB11&Number=185978&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=
The Tholian fighter is flying backwards in the game and needs to be turned around. Somebody please fix this.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: kiloton on October 09, 2003, 03:09:55 pm
Thank you so much for letting these see the light of day. We all appreciate it.
Ah, what might have been...
Ken
Post by: Rogue on October 09, 2003, 04:32:07 pm
"Gee, I didn't get you anything."
Much appreciation for letting us have these. Ah... what could have been. Having to contend with webcasters would have been fun. But Andy changes everything. Webs are one thing but P/A technology, displacement devices and TR beams makes for a hairy deep space encounter. Then again... trying to peal the web layer away from a Tholian Battlestation would have made for some tall tales. And many tears.
I wished some of the our SFC brothers could have gotten the full measure of the Andromedan conflict. Depending on how you matched up tacticly you need a BPV edge to whip a good Andromedan captain. Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Post by: kziti kat on October 09, 2003, 08:56:45 pm
Quote:
Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Yea, saber dancing with an andro is like throwing gas on a fire... things just get hotter and then you get burned.
Post by: Alidar Jarok on October 10, 2003, 11:03:51 am
Quote:
Thanks to DarkMatrix for MORE pics and fixing MORE of the GAW ships:
http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB11&Number=185978&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=
The Tholian fighter is flying backwards in the game and needs to be turned around. Somebody please fix this.
Qapla!
KF
Thanks for the pics, you guys
Post by: Dogmatix! on October 10, 2003, 11:17:02 am
Quote:Quote:
Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Yea, saber dancing with an andro is like throwing gas on a fire... things just get hotter and then you get burned.
Man...that ain't no lie!
Post by: APEXNETHOR on October 11, 2003, 03:10:01 pm
Post by: Rogue on October 11, 2003, 04:17:25 pm
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Yea, saber dancing with an andro is like throwing gas on a fire... things just get hotter and then you get burned.
Man...that ain't no lie!
The best tactic for success... be the Amdromedan player.
It isn't like you can't beat the Andromedans. You can. And rather spectacularly. When things start going bad for Andy they go bad quickly. Cascade damage from internal systems going pop scores more internals. So it can get out of hand pretty quickly. If you liked to play disruptor dependant races you were at a disadvantage to start with. You only pull the trigger when you were reasonably sure you could score internals. That or you had a good chance of a second strike a turn later on the same strained power absorbers.
It is a lot more fun to have all the tactical advantages of being the Andromedan.
Post by: Rat_Boy on October 12, 2003, 01:57:52 pm
Post by: 3dot14 on October 12, 2003, 02:27:11 pm
http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/sfb/aids/msc/R10-andr.html
But you can find the Andro ship-class designations here.
If you want individual ship names... well then you might have to wait for someone with their SFB campaign scenario books.
Post by: Alidar Jarok on October 12, 2003, 04:47:57 pm
Post by: Rat_Boy on October 12, 2003, 05:33:10 pm
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 02:09:15 pm
http://208.57.228.4/GAW_Models.zip
Enjoy!
Dave
Post by: Karnak on October 06, 2003, 02:16:16 pm
These may come in handy someday.
Post by: Rod O'neal on October 06, 2003, 02:40:53 pm
Post by: Rivaris on October 06, 2003, 02:47:35 pm
Post by: Lepton1 on October 06, 2003, 02:48:02 pm
Post by: Rhaz on October 06, 2003, 02:59:17 pm
Post by: Strafer on October 06, 2003, 03:57:00 pm
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 04:00:59 pm
If anyone wishes to mirror them, please do.
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on October 06, 2003, 04:05:03 pm
Post by: Strafer on October 06, 2003, 04:10:08 pm
Is that... a Wyn base?
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 04:42:55 pm
http://208.57.228.4/GAW_Concepts.zip
and a couple of personal favs:
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: Aldaron on October 06, 2003, 04:46:38 pm
Post by: FireSoul on October 06, 2003, 04:51:34 pm
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 05:01:27 pm
I couldn't find the moc up of the Andro interface, just think
green and yellow and you get the idea.
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: Lepton1 on October 06, 2003, 05:21:13 pm
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 05:39:52 pm
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 05:42:54 pm
I still don't understand why a SFC: OP Gold couln't have been released with these ships AND the SFC1 missions. I'd buy two copies myself... I am very grateful for this peice of GAW that never came to pass.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: David Ferrell on October 06, 2003, 05:44:43 pm
way off as they never were added in the game.
Thanks,
Dave
Post by: TOCXOBearslayer on October 06, 2003, 05:57:53 pm
Makes one ponder how open Taldren would be to allowing some of the fine programers we have adding scripts and SQL to the game access to the stuff they need to actually make our own GAW?
Regardless of the answers... thank you for all the effort that has been placed into this product.
Post by: SkyFlyer on October 06, 2003, 06:48:30 pm
im sure some people here have to competance to be able to do this
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 07:01:16 pm
The Klingon Academy Tholians are a bit distorted. I have all of DarkMatrix's KA conversions and their textures, light maps and mod files have been updated. I will get them up soon. I do like the Tholian fighter, frieghter and starbase.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: Aldaron on October 06, 2003, 07:58:17 pm
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 08:44:05 pm
Quote:
Problem with putting them in is that none of the mechanics for the races are there, although the Thloians would only be missing their webs and the ability to pinwheel (big part of their makeup). The Andromedans are missing the displacement device, PA panels, increased batteries (can be simulated I guess), PA panels stopping all tansporting inside side, transporting SS outside.....etc.
These are not insurmountable problems. We may not have the EXACT tools but we can approximate things. Displacement devices can be substituted with Cloaking devices and armor/shields can simulate PA panels. Actual scripted missions can cover some of the missing special effects too (not my area of expertise).
Qapla!
KF
Post by: IndyShark on October 06, 2003, 08:45:59 pm
Thanks
Post by: EmeraldEdge on October 06, 2003, 08:59:04 pm
Post by: 3dot14 on October 06, 2003, 09:03:04 pm
(on the other hand, I think we can also consider these two more nails in GAW's coffin. I mean if Taldren realistically expect to do GaW in the future, they won't give this away...)
Thanks again dave, we must treasure all we get now.
Post by: Mr. Hypergol on October 06, 2003, 09:42:57 pm
Quote:
I mean if Taldren realistically expect to do GaW in the future, they won't give this away...)
I don't think this necessarily means a nail in the coffin to SFC or GAW in the long run.
Honestly, if SFC is continued in the future it's likely to be far enough into the future (at least a few years minimum) to warrent a totally new graphics engine and a complete overhaul of the code anyway. From Taldren's perspective it's highly unlikely they would use much from the previous games including this unpublished material. In other words, this stuff wouldn't have been used for GAW anyway now that so much time has passed.
Post by: jualdeaux on October 06, 2003, 09:44:16 pm
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 06, 2003, 09:45:29 pm
Don't forget P81's TMP Andromedans and DarkMatrix's kitbashes of them at SFU. These will nicley round out the Taldren Andros that weren't made...
Thanks again Taldren staff!
Qapla!
KF
Post by: James Formo on October 07, 2003, 01:47:42 am
Post by: DarkMatrix on October 07, 2003, 03:15:20 am
hope you do more sfc i tell you now you got a Big fanbase ready to buy
DM
Post by: starforce2 on October 07, 2003, 03:21:57 am
Post by: DarkMatrix on October 07, 2003, 05:43:39 am
Quote:
Now if we can get somebody with .MAX to convert some of the Andromedan models to .MOD format...
The Klingon Academy Tholians are a bit distorted. I have all of DarkMatrix's KA conversions and their textures, light maps and mod files have been updated. I will get them up soon. I do like the Tholian fighter, frieghter and starbase.
Qapla!
KF
all done you find the downloads in the modeling forum
DM
Post by: I_Mudd on October 07, 2003, 07:51:39 am
Maybe this isn't the end of the dream.
We've always thought we could one day go purchase GAW ... and now, for this game engine, it seems like that possibility is near gone. But, thinking "outside the box" for a moment lead me to wonder about a few things. This is purely speculation.
Erik said once he really wanted to produce GAW. He obviously knows how badly we fans would like - no LOVE - this addition to his game. Just how much work was really done? Models were unexpected, at least by me. Sure, you'd need to test results with something, but any model from the existing game could've been used for that. From a financial standpoint, time = $$$, that would seem right; code first, art last. Maybe I'm wrong ...
Now for the big "What if ...?" part. What if models and production art were not all Erik was willing to make available for the fans? (My jaded and cynical side is really making it hard to make this post seriously, but really, what if?) It's not like I'm ungratefull for what has been released. He didn't have to O.K. anything, but for whatever reason, he did. He has my thanks at the very least. His generosity is greatly apprieciated.
Those max file, he knew, would be converted into ship mods and used. No harm there, can't control what the fans do with them. Now if he were to release other "add-ins", perhaps, with a little community effort and a wink and a nod from Taldren, we would indeed have GAW. No law says he can't give the stuff away if he can't profit financially from it.
Ok,ok...It's all wishful thinking and fairy tales. My jaded and cynical side has come back to control this post. This will never happen, as there is no Easter bunny and no code to add. There are no additional UI's for the extra races and no way to add them anyways. There are no ways to include pinwheeling and webs. The game maps will not support the additional Empires...cartels are just a work around. There is no ...
hmmm ... is hope really that dead on this issue? Have we beaten the horse to glue and now stuck fast ...?
[heavysigh.wav]
This is too frustrating and too depressing. I'm going to go breath a little more life into TOS and finish up a model.
I_Mudd.
Post by: Atrahasis on October 07, 2003, 08:49:56 am
Post by: Chris Jones on October 07, 2003, 12:21:04 pm
Time to re-think the TNG Mod for OP with these babies released.
Kudos!!
Post by: Sethan on October 07, 2003, 02:54:37 pm
Thank you gentlemen.
Post by: Captain Krenn on October 07, 2003, 04:54:24 pm
but is there a paticular tool you are supposed to view these with?
Captain "without a clue" Krenn
Post by: Strafer on October 07, 2003, 05:13:11 pm
I know FireSoul has it online at http://klingon.stasis.ca under the sources & utils section...
Post by: jualdeaux on October 07, 2003, 07:08:53 pm
Quote:
Forgive my ignorance,
but is there a paticular tool you are supposed to view these with?
Captain "without a clue" Krenn
You can also get it from Here . Just download the model viewer.
Post by: Toasty0 on October 07, 2003, 07:34:00 pm
Quote:
Forgive my ignorance,
but is there a paticular tool you are supposed to view these with?
Captain "without a clue" Krenn
http://www.toasty0.com/OP_Patch.aspx
Click the Show Me Other SFC stuff button
Post by: Budgie Blade on October 07, 2003, 07:48:23 pm
Thanks for releasing them. Greatly appreciate it!
Post by: Jim on October 07, 2003, 10:57:47 pm
Jim
Post by: Captain Krenn on October 08, 2003, 10:21:20 am
Thanks for the links guys!
These models are awesome!
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 08, 2003, 08:46:23 pm
Anybody notice that the Tholian fighter is flying backwards? That needs to be tweaked.
KF
Post by: Alidar Jarok on October 08, 2003, 09:30:39 pm
Post by: VelvetAcidChrist on October 09, 2003, 01:30:57 am
i hope your´re satisfied now,
cheers
VAC
Post by: Klingon Fanatic on October 09, 2003, 05:34:33 am
http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB11&Number=185978&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=
The Tholian fighter is flying backwards in the game and needs to be turned around. Somebody please fix this.
Qapla!
KF
Post by: kiloton on October 09, 2003, 03:09:55 pm
Thank you so much for letting these see the light of day. We all appreciate it.
Ah, what might have been...
Ken
Post by: Rogue on October 09, 2003, 04:32:07 pm
"Gee, I didn't get you anything."
Much appreciation for letting us have these. Ah... what could have been. Having to contend with webcasters would have been fun. But Andy changes everything. Webs are one thing but P/A technology, displacement devices and TR beams makes for a hairy deep space encounter. Then again... trying to peal the web layer away from a Tholian Battlestation would have made for some tall tales. And many tears.
I wished some of the our SFC brothers could have gotten the full measure of the Andromedan conflict. Depending on how you matched up tacticly you need a BPV edge to whip a good Andromedan captain. Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Post by: kziti kat on October 09, 2003, 08:56:45 pm
Quote:
Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Yea, saber dancing with an andro is like throwing gas on a fire... things just get hotter and then you get burned.
Post by: Alidar Jarok on October 10, 2003, 11:03:51 am
Quote:
Thanks to DarkMatrix for MORE pics and fixing MORE of the GAW ships:
http://208.57.228.4/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB11&Number=185978&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=
The Tholian fighter is flying backwards in the game and needs to be turned around. Somebody please fix this.
Qapla!
KF
Thanks for the pics, you guys
Post by: Dogmatix! on October 10, 2003, 11:17:02 am
Quote:Quote:
Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Yea, saber dancing with an andro is like throwing gas on a fire... things just get hotter and then you get burned.
Man...that ain't no lie!
Post by: APEXNETHOR on October 11, 2003, 03:10:01 pm
Post by: Rogue on October 11, 2003, 04:17:25 pm
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Abandon anything that resembles a saber dance tactic.
Yea, saber dancing with an andro is like throwing gas on a fire... things just get hotter and then you get burned.
Man...that ain't no lie!
The best tactic for success... be the Amdromedan player.
It isn't like you can't beat the Andromedans. You can. And rather spectacularly. When things start going bad for Andy they go bad quickly. Cascade damage from internal systems going pop scores more internals. So it can get out of hand pretty quickly. If you liked to play disruptor dependant races you were at a disadvantage to start with. You only pull the trigger when you were reasonably sure you could score internals. That or you had a good chance of a second strike a turn later on the same strained power absorbers.
It is a lot more fun to have all the tactical advantages of being the Andromedan.
Post by: Rat_Boy on October 12, 2003, 01:57:52 pm
Post by: 3dot14 on October 12, 2003, 02:27:11 pm
http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/sfb/aids/msc/R10-andr.html
But you can find the Andro ship-class designations here.
If you want individual ship names... well then you might have to wait for someone with their SFB campaign scenario books.
Post by: Alidar Jarok on October 12, 2003, 04:47:57 pm
Post by: Rat_Boy on October 12, 2003, 05:33:10 pm