Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on February 28, 2003, 03:12:33 pm
Of more concern is that despite bases and planets getting beefed up in the patch, klingon bases and platforms are very vulnerable to attacks by lone vessels (the attacking craft preferrably being a CL or larger, with 2 or more medium or heavy torpedoes in the front arc- having torpedoes in the rear arc can work, but the arc is considerably narrower, so harder to use)...any klink base/platform will fall to torp runs made at warp, because as long as you keep your attak angle a tad oblique to the target base/platform, those dizzy-Vs will never hit you. When the old build 488 was out, I ran missions with a quantum-equiped Norway and a Defiant in a base assault and a planetary assault; the Norway, with a rookie crew, destroyed a starbase, its platforms, and a K'vort and B'rel, with some minor hull damage; the Defiant ran the planetary assault, and wiped out the def plats, 3 K'tingas, 2 Fek'Lhrs, and a B'rel, while barely suffering a mark to its paint job, let alone armor. Now, in the release build of SFC3, a lone DD or CL with a decent crew could sit back with polarons or quantums and do this anyways...but in either of the beta patched versions, take a lone DN, let alone a CL or DD, and attack a fed/rom/borg base or planet, it'd be rough, unless you can sit back with a legendary crew and snipe away with heavy torpedoes (too bad roms don't have that option, heheheh), the former of which are generally harder to come by in the patched versions.
Because seeing is believing, I have posted a replay of me taking a Defiant, loaded up with torpedoes, and carrying a rookie crew, and attacking a Klingon Starbase defended by 2 K'Vorts and a B'rel (I wish it had generated a Vor'Cha or two, to be a bit more compelling, but I think it will still get the point across); it can be found at BattleClinic.Com in the replay section. If you count yourself as being a dedicated Klink player, are David Ferrell, or just want to see how to solo klink bases without taking a scratch, it might be worth looking at.
Post by: Wiz33 on February 28, 2003, 03:23:33 pm
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on February 28, 2003, 03:43:47 pm
Post by: SOS_Skorzeny on February 28, 2003, 03:45:42 pm
Quote:
Wiz on most server
So what are you telling us here? That you are really really good at most games? Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?
Hee hee!
*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)
Post by: SirWilliam on February 28, 2003, 04:11:55 pm
Quote:Quote:
Wiz on most server
So what are you telling us here? That you are really really good at most games? Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?
Hee hee!
*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)
ROFLMAO.
My monitor is now covered in a fine glaze of Cherry Coke.
SW
Post by: Wiz33 on February 28, 2003, 07:35:27 pm
Quote:Quote:
Wiz on most server
So what are you telling us here? That you are really really good at most games? Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?
Hee hee!
*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)
Hey, It's a left over from my D&D days. It has a lot of history behind it, including an incident with a thermonuclear hamster. :-P
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 01, 2003, 02:54:24 am
Alexander
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 01, 2003, 03:35:24 am
But don't believe me, believe the 1 MB replay at the BattleClinic...
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 01, 2003, 06:20:20 pm
Quote:
Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.
Alexander
Further examination of the weapons charts tends to contradict the less-degradation/inability-to-hit-warping-targets arguement on two points:
1.) Klingon dizzies don't have universally better decay rates. Type Is and IIs definitely do, which explains the higher prestige cost for these models, when compared to phasers; type IIIFs and IVFs have the same decay characteristics of their Fed counterparts; the type IVS has a slight advantage over the phaser XIIS; the type IIIS is actually marginally inferior to the phaser XIS.
2.) Looking at Romulan dizzies, their numbers suggest superior decay rates is a general characteristic of disruptors in general, rather than something specific to Klingon weapons. I base this on the rather favorable decay characteristics of of Romulan dizzy Is and IIs, as well as the fact that Romulan and Klingon standard disruptors tend not to degrade below two points of damage at maximum range, as opposed to phasers and cutting beams, which drop all the way down to one point of damage.
Post by: Lepton1 on March 01, 2003, 06:38:52 pm
As far as I am concerned it is a pvp game breaker. When someone can just warp jump away from you all the time and not get hit and as a klink you dont have the same advantage, it is totally unbalancing. There are innumerable battles against feds where I could have finished them off if they had not had the option to warp jump away and repair the entire time. Hell, that's part of the reason I switched to rom. Didn't want anyone to just be able to run away unscathed.
The solution is simple. No primaries able to hit ships at warp, ever. It's as abitrary as only one race not being able to, so why not. End of story.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 01, 2003, 07:01:07 pm
If you're creative, you can get around any opposing strategy.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 01, 2003, 11:56:58 pm
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 02, 2003, 01:30:52 am
1. No mechanics were carried over from SCF2. The entire setup is different because of the new abilities to assing your own weaponry and the fact that speed is no longer an energy drain. Don't blame old games for this one.
2. I'm sure the borg players bitch about no shields, the feds about no cloak, and I know the romulans complain about our weak assed hulls. I realise the federation SEEMS easier. But I choose not to play the federation because they are tactically limiting.
3. No one said you had to play klingon. If you can't get around being weak against warp dagger maneuvres, then pick a different weakness. I'm sure the klingon race will survive.
4. There is a difference between a bug and a feature. Taldren likes it this way. Deal with it, its more cannon.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 02, 2003, 02:02:21 am
1. The graphic for the SFC3 klink dizzie is exactly the same as SFC2, despite it is now a primary and not a heavy. Its bolt-like behavior is a hold over from SFC2. Everyone knows that. Taldren didnt want everyone to have phasers anymore, so they made klinks have "phaser" disruptors. The manner in which they have implemented it bespeaks of a certain intellectual laziness.
2. Not a good analogy. What would be more analagous to say would be if klinks did not have multi-volley on torps while everyone else does. Clearly, they do and that is balance. Every other race can hit ships at warp. Klinks cant for all intents and purposes. That is an inbalance. It is not some pseudo-fundamental race difference. It is a clear handicap.
3. As I said I dont play klink for this very reason. I usually go rom. I'll be damned if I am going to be saddled with some frigging nonsense handicap. And it is isnt warp dagger tactics that are of concern. If you had read my post with any care, you would have seen that the real prob lies in the fact that ships may warp jump away from a klink without reprisal and continue to do so while one gives chase. This allows opposing players to repair, shield regen, whatnot, with complete impunity while a klink or anyone else could never get away with that vs anyone else. Get your facts straight.
4. Cloaking was changed in the beta as was much else. Anything can be changed in the game if it is acknowledged as a clear problem. Canon? Let's not go there. Canon (whatever that is) gets violated practically everytime there has ever been anything put forth. Episodes and movies constantly contradict themselves. As Krotz I am sure will atest to, there have been numerous instances of beam-like dizzies on klink ships on DS9 especially on larger class ships. And as such, DS9 actually offers the most canon details on screen for TNG klinks as they figured highly in the war with the Dominion. So don't talk to me again about canon without being able to back it up. By the way, I have also seen Rom dizzies more often depicted as bolts in TNG on ST:TNG and nearly never as beams. So perhaps we could change the game to suit that bit of canon as well, so you can have the crappy dizzies.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 02, 2003, 02:50:50 pm
1. You're calling Taldren lazy because two weapons based off of the same weapon from the same show look similar?
2. The klingons aren't the first to be wiped out every game, (at least pre-patch), its usually the romulans. Obviously, its not THAT big of a weakness.
3. That IS the warp-dagger. Its not impossible to counter, it takes a few minutes for a ship to re-warp.
4. You don't seem to understand. Cannon would state that non-beam weapons (such as photon torpedoes) cannot be fired in a warp battle, wheras phasers can. Klingon ships you've seen firing beams were probably ion cannons. The only ship I've ever seen like that was the Vor'Cha class, and it only had ONE beam, which kind of supports that statement. They can't patch in an entirely new weapon. You're right, there is a limit to how much we can accept cannon, but in this case, it ADDS, rather than removes, from gameplay. Just because each race plays differently doesn't make it unbalanced. There are cheap tricks for each race. One could say that we should remove cloak-detect altogether, or make it so as you can't target subsystems on borg ships (perfectly cannon), except that would REMOVE from gameplay, rather than add.
Alexander
Post by: Thanos1 on March 02, 2003, 03:16:09 pm
Klingons are in a severe disadvantage when facing warpmaniacs. Any fed who tried to play warpmania vs me (playing as rom), however, got his hull torn to pieces. I would NOT have been able to do that if I was playing klink.
-suleo
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 02, 2003, 05:46:16 pm
)Alexander: "Canon" does not really belong in this discussion, and it sabotages your point anyways- (ST: Dorkism alert!) as stated in the official ST: DS9 Technical Manual, " It has been generally accepted that the photon torpedo is the weapon of choice for warp velocity ship-to-ship conflict, as well as the delivery system for non-standard delivery packages. Ship-mounted phasers have traditionally been of little use during warp flight, due to the light-speed barrier for EM energy." It does also note that "developments in subspace technology have pushed the phaser into the FTL arena, notably the ACB-jacketed beam device (see 14.1- this points to the the Defiant section, there's no further mention of such a weapon, but it seems it's not unreasonable to assume this points to the pulse phaser, which is ironic for reasons that are obvious)." Basically photons (and maybe pulse phasers) can hit targets at warp, regular phasers (and other such weapons) can't, according to ST canon; that such things are juxtaposed in the game isn't a big deal IMHO.
I don't know if the issue with bolt-firing weapons is intentional, I could just as easily see it being an unintentional side-effect of the way they were implemented. In either case, I submit it is a serious weakness in PvP, and it becomes a genuine exploitable problem when applied to Klink ai ships/bases/platforms, for as long as they don't have a ion or tachyon cannon, they are defenseless against warp tactics, as my replay at the BattleClinic demonstrates (if anyone thinks that the Defiant was the factor, I chose it because it was both readily available, as well as for all those hardpoints; a different ship, such as a Shrike, may take a little longer, but the outcome would remain the same, as I would happily demonstrate, if need be.)
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 02, 2003, 09:50:32 pm
Anyhow, you're right, as I later stated, the cannon really isn't the be all and end all. But still, if you can core rape the borg, you should be able to warp-out the klingons. EIther way you can get around it.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 02, 2003, 11:39:17 pm
The implementation of the klink dizzie is flawed for a number of reasons. First, it looks and acts like the SFC2 dizzie when clearly it is not. The klink dizzie is now a primary and not a heavy. Taldren had to make innumberable alterations or eradications of the essential SFC2 framework in SFC3, yet the dizzie still looks and acts the same way. Yet there is no reason why it should bear any resemblance to its SFC2 counterpart other than some vague notion of continuity and the unwillingness to write new weapons code for it for some reason. Case in point, the rom plasma. I have never seen any TNG, DS9, etc reference to plamsa yet here it is in SFC3. Why? Perhaps some tech manual somewhere says they still use it but reason away why it has never been seen in a TNG or DS9 episode. Who the hell knows? Note I have not seen Nemesis, so I dont know if plasma is in that. More likely, it is a SFC2 holdover, again vague notion of continuity with SFC2, etc. The point being that there were any number of conscious choices Taldren made that seem like holdovers from SFC2:
1. Anti-matter mine=nuclear space mine
2. Ion cannon=mauler
3. mines=mines (yeah there were lots of mines in TNG, lol)
4. marines=marines (again lots of raiding parties in TNG)
etc.
Taldren might have made any number of choices. When it came down to it, they bagged on real Borg, no cardies, no dominion, and left SFC2 stuff in that makes no sense in a TNG context. I suspect that their motives were to save as much development as possible hence the SFC3 SFC2 hodge-podge.
Second, all other primaries can hit targets at warp. Klink dizzies cannot for all intents and purposes. The tactical handicap is this among others. When an opposing players is damaged well enough that they feel uncomfortable taking weapons fire, they may warp jump away from you as a klink repeatedly and repair and shield regen. They may do this with impunity as you can never hit them with your dizzies. I am not speaking of defeating the warp dagger, an offensive stratgey. I am talking of defeating warp jumping, a defensive manuever. Every other race has the ability in the above scenerio to give chase to the wounded opponent at warp, drop out of warp as he turns to jump again away from you, and hammer him with full primaries as his shields drop in his warp jump. I have been lucky enough on occasion playing as a rom to take out half a hull when someone pulls this warp jumping crap. As a klink, you dont have this option to hit them at warp yet every other race does. So they can jump away from you all day if they like. That makes it unfair and unbalanced. And dont say, "Well just use a tach pulse or ion cannon". Those weapons are heavies and take up the heavies hard points take should have torps on them. Also, Tachs do very little damage and ion cannons do little damage at range which is the usual firing scenario in the case above. But that isnt the point. I shouldnt have to use inferior heavies or heavies at all to hit warping targets when every other race can with their primaries. In my tests with fed phasers a bank of 4 phaser IV's was delivering on average 10 points of internal damage from range 30 or so for warping targets. That seems like a clear and non-trivial advantage to me.
Third, the klink dizzie is non-unique and indistinct from fed phaser. The damage stats are nearly identical and as such it offers nothing to add to the race identity of the kliinks except a tactical disadvantage. The klink dizzie is the fed phaser is the rom dizzie is the borg cutting beam. They all are a fill-in for the ubiquitous phaser in SFC2 and as such shows Taldren's remarkable inability to think up something new for SFC3. Balance in SFC3 was foisted on the back of primaries being essentially the same, with minor race distinctions based on heavies. So either give me the tactical blandness of nearly identical yet balanced primaries, or create something novel that adds tactical depth, but dont handicap one race and says it adds depth or color to the TNG world of SFC3. It doesnt.
As to the D3 success of any race, that has more to do with number of players than race tech. Roms are constantly underplayed. As I have said, I usually go rom just for the fact that they were always getting trounced and the BLUE PLAGUE benefitted from having a whole empire they could just overrun at any time to gain victory points. The klink dizzie disadvantge is in pvp play not in the overall D3 campaign sense, although I will say that when I did play as a klink I am sure that being able to hit a target at warp would have surely helped me win a number of hexes. Now if we add that up over all klink battles ever fought, that sounds like a big difference to me although it may not be apparent on the surface of things.
Finally, regardless of canon/non-cannon arguements, there is much in SFC3 that is non-canon (again whatever that is) namely, mines, raiding parties, plasma, whatever. Taldren made conscious choices to keep somethings from SFC2, lose others, and make up some new things. Be that as it may, it was within their discretion to create primaries that behaved essentially the same, and for some reason they chose not to for the klink dizzie. To me, it doesnt make sense, is inbalancing, and is consistent in many ways with other SFC2 holdovers that demonstrate a lack of imagination on their part. You are free to disagree with me, but you would be wrong. Again, I say try klink for awhile and see how you find this lack of ability that all others have. You might feel different when you are the one being short-changed.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 03, 2003, 12:22:41 am
Alexander
Post by: Thanos1 on March 03, 2003, 08:53:11 pm
-suleo
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 03, 2003, 11:37:51 pm
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 04, 2003, 03:55:53 pm
Tachyons...not universally great weapons, but not without their perks. Definitely not a standard weapon on Klingon vessels, so it rather sabotages player ship customization if you're faced with the choice of either taking one in lieu of a weapon you'd rather have, or giving the warpmaniac free reign by not having one. Tachyons aren't especially accurate either, despite firing a beam, according to the weapons charts, they are typically less accurate than a torpedo at range, meaning keeping someone from going to warp isn't quite so "point-and-shoot" as you make it sound. Tachyons aren't on Klingon bases or platforms, and they aren't going to chase anyone down either, so they are quite vulnerable to warping torpedo runs by solo ships (I got a base assault against a Klingon starbase, using a Falcon w/ two medium plasmas, I'll have a replay of it posted tomorrow, as the Defiant is often regarded as an uber-ship).
Alexander, I think you are also discounting the worth of those free shots at armor/hull other races get at warping targets. I've had wingmen try to retreat off the map, only to have their warp core phasered out off them as they attempt to warp off the map...shooting out somebody's systems certainly beats having to carry around a tachyon pulse just to put some hits on shields. Also, while I haven't timed transition rates in the current build, did you know a ship with a legendary engineer (in previous builds) could actually go to warp roughly half-a-second before a ship could uncloak? Not so bad if you got beams you can overload and zap that fool with, not very cool if you got bolts that can't connect.
Note too, that while 35 points-per-AMM mine-cheese was not without counters, that didn't change the fact something was very broke in that dynamic.
My point is this: bolt-firing primaries, be they Klink dizzies or Fed pulse phasers, because they utilize the same mechanics of torpedos, have inherited the same deficiencies as torpedos when engaging targets at warp, i.e. they are only going to hit if fired more or less parallel to the target's course.Tthis was done intentionally with torpedoes; bolts might have been conciously have been left to be limited in the same way, or it may have been an oversight whose implications hadn't really been thought of at the time. In either case, I would contend that it puts Klingon players at an unnecessary disadvantage (imagine if your Rom boat just HAD to have a class-V transporter for some reason...you could be a real irritant to the Borg, but you'd probably rather have that mass allocated to a better cloak, armor, etc. as a perpective on citing "tachyon pulse" as the ultimate answer), makes Klink AI ships are abnormally vulnerable to offensive warp tactics, and makes it so bases and planets (which are vital strategic targets in dynaverse play do to economy ratings or VC conditions for the particular server) can be taken out by a single vessel (not a big deal in the initial release, but very much so considering the "toughened" versions of base/planet assault mssions in the beta patches) with minimal risk to the attacker (to see how, check out my replay at BattleClinic.com)...these factors point to a weapon system whose very exploitable weakness qualifies it a being label "broken" and in need of a fix (maybe doubling the velocity of dizzy and pulse phaser bolts?).
Just out of curiousity, I think I'll put up a poll on the subject tomorrow.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 04, 2003, 06:08:20 pm
Alexander
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 04, 2003, 06:30:50 pm
Alexander
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on March 04, 2003, 07:34:20 pm
As for Phasers being fired at Warp, look to ST:Voy: Message in a Bottle. The Prometheus wasted a Nebula at warp, with phasers. Never, NEVER take anything written in any book as cannon, (there are a few exceptions but those are few and far between, Taylor's two Novels about Janeway about sum it up) When thinking ST Cannon, you have approach it the same way you have to approach Star Wars Cannon...If it wasn't shown on the screen, it never happened.
I still dont think that sheilds should be dropped while at warp, but that seems to be common in most ST games since DW. Heck, look no further than the CGI movies included with the game. In the romulan scene, Klingon ships fired thier Dizzes at warp, Shrike disguised as Intrepid's shields absorb the hit, Raptor disguised as Neghvar fires romulan Dizzies (still at warp) destroying BoP.
Post by: Lepton1 on March 04, 2003, 09:32:43 pm
Its like you refuse to get it. Exotic heavies cost more, often take more mass, take up a hard point for a better heavy, and are not necessary for other races to hit ships at warp. And there is no chasing down someone warp jumping if they dont wish to be caught. The only recourse a player has to keep them from using it as a repair tactic is to chase at warp, drop out of warp while they are turning to jump off at a new angle, fire primaries when you go to warp as heavies won't track to hit them. Have you honestly never experienced the scenario I am describing, not to mention Krotz's warp dagger advantage against klinks? I think you are clearly just refusing to see our points. I get your points (other options, race differences, etc), but you clearly can't understand ours. What I object to in your arguements is the disregard it shows for some clearly articulated points on our part, while you have supplied almost nothing to bolster your points save objecting to what we say. If there is some great reason for handicapping one race, I sure would like to hear it, other than "well that's how it is in the game, so".
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 04, 2003, 09:49:25 pm
What's going on here is that you refuse to diversify tactics. You lost a fight, and now you're saying it should be changed so that a straight shoot-out will beat excellent tactics. This will never happen. Get over it. It can be done. And no, I don;t have a replay, I didn't have replay saving on until after I signed up for the Battleclinic.
Just give chase. Tactics can and will beat a straight shoot-out. The fact that some tactics work better against some races than others is meaningless. Warp Jump is no more effective against klingons than core raids are against the borg.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 05, 2003, 02:04:53 am
I am sorry to say that I think you tip your hand a bit when it comes to tactical complexity. A Falcon with only heavy torps? Now that is cheesy. Decloak, fire. Whoopee! Hope that's fun for you. Perhaps you could write a C++ script to execute those monotonous "tactical" manuevers over and over again. Or do you snipe? I think you must have drunk the cool-aid to think there is anything tactical about SFC3. It's more like exploiting game silliness than tactics in most instances.
My point is simple and has very little to do with "tactics". The fact that all other races can hit warping targets is a significant disadvantage for klinks. The reason that it should be so is completely arbitrary, therefore why not change it to balance things out. Krotz and I have supplied two good examples of the present system's impacts on klink game play. While certainly almost any disadvantage can be overcome or lived-with, there is nothing to say it has to be the way that it is. Alterations have been made to the AMM, cloak, other features in beta patch. There is no particular reason why this should not be altered as well except for some vague arguements about race identity/differences. Should they have left cloak detect rates the same and said "oh well, that's the way it is, live with it or adapt."? I as a rom almost never used cloak and I think I was pretty successful doing so. I viewed it more as a defensive than offensive option. Be that as it may, there were significant enough complaints about cloaking for detection rates to be altered. I submit that the same conditions pertain here. If you so vehemently disagree with "race limitation whining" then I suggest you lead a campaign to revert cloaking detection rates to pre-patch levels and deal with it or get over it as you say. When shoe is on other foot, I am sure you would feel differently.
Post by: Praxis on March 05, 2003, 03:16:57 am
Making good use of tactics can overcome this problem. Heres an example. I went in a battle with me in a Defiant and a newbie in an Akira and wasted him
I went in battle again, same newbie and another newbie, FFA. The one i killed earlier decided to take a Defiant like me. So did the other newbie. So it was 3 players in Defiants. The two newbies dueled, while i stood aside and watched, keeping out of range. Neither took significant hull damage, but one lost quite a bit of shielding, and warped out. I pointed myself at the battlefield at a point just in front of the newbie who had not yet warped, and pressed warp. As i was flying at warp, he warped too, and since my course would have taken my in front of him, now he would pass in front of me. JUST as he was about to pass over me i slammed the firing button, hitting him with 4 quantums while we were BOTH moving at warp. (Legendary tactical officer lets me fire 2 shots per launcher ) he lost half his hull in an instant, then continued pursuing the other player, i jumped in and killed em both.Adjusting your course to go head-to-head while the other player is at warp and firing torps will offset the disruptor problem. If the player is coming at you, you can hit him, you only can't when he moves away. And when the other player is moving away, even phasers and romulan disruptors USUALLY can't hit him because of the angular velocity at that speed and angle.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 05, 2003, 06:35:32 pm
I completely fail to understand how ANY player could be so incompetant that they couldn't hit one key within the 7 seconds is takes to re-warp. just LISTEN for it. its not hard. Its true that you hit their shields. Its ALSO true that the bulk of their weaponry can't hit you, unless they're playing a chicken-mod ship, which most players DON'T. If it helps, set your combat speed to 7 instead of 9, then you'll have a full 12 seconds to hit the button.
Have you actually TRIED what I've been suggesting, or are you just assuming it doesn't work? Its hardly apples and oranges. Its the same situation exactly, but its a DIFFERENT way around it. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. If you want to describe it with foods, then you might equate it to a starving man in a desert. You're asking god for a cheeseburger, and completely IGNORE the perfectly edible cacti around you. They may be HARDER to eat. It may require you to WORK, and TRY NEW THINGS, but it will STILL save your life.
Alexander
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 05, 2003, 07:20:08 pm
Canon is an unreliable guide for what should be; it's often conflicting, even without application to SFC3, or any other ST game.
There is no more reason to assume bolt-warping target interaction is an intended feature, any more than one can assume the broken stardate advancement in SP campaigns are a feature. On the other hand, to say it's an oversight would be speculation. I would therefore suggest neither of these two standpoints are really pertinent, as this has yet to be commented on one way or another officially.
Alexander, I actually do agree with you this isn't a game breaker in PvP, in most situations anyways, though there are ways in which a skilled player can exploit it; Klink players fighting AI ships obviously don't have a problem; the ease of using offensive warp tactics against Klink AIs is somewhat disturbing, but even the largest AI DN can be felled by an intelligently flown DD, so that's not too big a deal; I do take exception to the notion of current bolt-behavior being okay when these factors are added to the ABSOLUTE EASE by which Klink bases can be warp-daggered to pieces, for little or no harm to one's own ship, even the measly Falcon w/ a pair of M-plasmas used in the replay I made just for you, Alexander ( here's the link @ battleclinic, don't worry it's pretty short ). Bases are potentially very important facilities on some servers, as they serve as AI spawn points (AIs can still impede movement, if nothing else), resupply points, can increase DVs for adjacent hexes, and can be key structures if part of VC conditions or when LOS/OA rules are in use (depending on the implementation). Klink planets are made more vulnerable by this as well, though it's generally a bit tedious to execute solo, because killing all those AI ships can take awhile; 3 DDs with quantums or medium plasmas (gravimetrics could do the trick too, but the aft arcs on Borg FFs and DDs are too narrow to get consistent use out of them; a diamonds front and side mounts would probably work though, haven't tried it yet) could do it pretty readily though. I invite you to try it, though don't use a Warbird or Scimitar, they're too wide, a Raptor should be okay though.
It's the cumulative ways (not even so much in PvP, as yes, a player can indeed partly compensate for it with good tactics) by which this deficiency can be exploited, which makes it broke, IMHO.
As I assume Alexander posted the poll here in the spirit of good intent, thank you, though I wish you would have waited, it probably would be more visible if it was its own topic, as opposed to being on the tail end post on this one.
Post by: Lepton1 on March 05, 2003, 09:17:33 pm
Post by: Scorpion on March 05, 2003, 11:01:49 pm
). If they kept warping around still after I cloak, I would just cruise around slowly and wait for them to warp close enough to me and at a good angle for me to get a good shot at them and then decloak soon enough to fire a nice shot off at them. I guess what I am trying to say here is that YES, I think that the klingon primaries are at a disadvantage, but there are still some ways to get around it. It's not really that big of a problem compared to the problems that plagued the romulans before the beta. ( BTW, I'm still mainly a Klingon player and won't let something like this stand in my way. 
)
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 05, 2003, 11:10:03 pm
BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors. I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.
This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.
Alexander
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 06, 2003, 12:36:24 am
Quote:
BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors.
Not sure if this refers to the Falcon in my little demo, I just used mediums 'cuz lights took way too long, and you could conceivably still have some nominal disruptor armament, not that I was carrying anything like that at the time.
Quote:
I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.
Torps have always been able to fire at warp, likely inspired by ST:TMP, it's quite intentional, and not likely to change. Calling the attack runs on the bases "warp-daggers" was actually something of a misnomer, it's more like "warp-strafing", you start the warp out of the target's weapons range, launch your overloaded torps while still at warp, and don't stop warping until you are out of weapons range again. The only way you get hit is if a) you don't get an oblique enough angle; b) you are too wide, like a Warbird; or c) an AI ship is sitting on your vector when it fires...because you only need to drop out of warp to turn around/not overshoot map borders, I'm afraid your solution really wouldn't be applicable.
Quote:
This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.
Alexander
I read this as implying you believe Klink dizzies being able to hit warping targets would be damaging to PvP fights. I'm curious, why? I can certainly understand wanting to stay conservative, from the standpoint of wishing to avoid opening a Pandora's Box of lending legimacy to silly requests like upping Polaron damage or having Borg pyramids that eat Sovs for breakfast to be more "canon", and other such nonsense; on the other hand I have a hard time seeing changing the bolts to allow them to hit warping targets as something that leads to Klingons becoming some kind of unbeatable Red Menace in PvP
(a charge, humorously enough, that might have been levied on the patched Romulans, were it not that the beta servers are relatively quiet...not that it should be implied I think that, it just seemed somehow ironic to me).
Post by: Lepton1 on March 06, 2003, 02:00:17 am
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 08, 2003, 02:37:31 pm
I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.
And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.
I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.
Alexander
Post by: KD4 on March 08, 2003, 11:07:40 pm
Quote:
What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.
I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.
And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.
I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.
Alexander
you realy cant belive this about it being the klingons only weekness if you do you realy need to fly klingon more because you apperantly have not played them much ether that or you are feeding us a bunch of s---
Post by: Blitzkrieg on March 09, 2003, 05:21:53 am
My overwealmingly blue oppinion on this is, that Klingons do good enough as it is. I played a coueple of warp dancing Fed DN's and found them to be easy targets in the grand scheme of things, especialy seems they lined up for a full frontal warp attack (how silly). Those K-Torps overloaded do a great deal of damage against there unprotected hulls, also the Ion cannon appears to hit a lot at warp (note, appears). This MORE than makes up for it, especialy when you consider the ability to cloak makes warp dancing tougher.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 09, 2003, 12:32:54 pm
Alexander
Post by: Draco on March 09, 2003, 12:59:06 pm
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on February 28, 2003, 03:12:33 pm
Of more concern is that despite bases and planets getting beefed up in the patch, klingon bases and platforms are very vulnerable to attacks by lone vessels (the attacking craft preferrably being a CL or larger, with 2 or more medium or heavy torpedoes in the front arc- having torpedoes in the rear arc can work, but the arc is considerably narrower, so harder to use)...any klink base/platform will fall to torp runs made at warp, because as long as you keep your attak angle a tad oblique to the target base/platform, those dizzy-Vs will never hit you. When the old build 488 was out, I ran missions with a quantum-equiped Norway and a Defiant in a base assault and a planetary assault; the Norway, with a rookie crew, destroyed a starbase, its platforms, and a K'vort and B'rel, with some minor hull damage; the Defiant ran the planetary assault, and wiped out the def plats, 3 K'tingas, 2 Fek'Lhrs, and a B'rel, while barely suffering a mark to its paint job, let alone armor. Now, in the release build of SFC3, a lone DD or CL with a decent crew could sit back with polarons or quantums and do this anyways...but in either of the beta patched versions, take a lone DN, let alone a CL or DD, and attack a fed/rom/borg base or planet, it'd be rough, unless you can sit back with a legendary crew and snipe away with heavy torpedoes (too bad roms don't have that option, heheheh), the former of which are generally harder to come by in the patched versions.
Because seeing is believing, I have posted a replay of me taking a Defiant, loaded up with torpedoes, and carrying a rookie crew, and attacking a Klingon Starbase defended by 2 K'Vorts and a B'rel (I wish it had generated a Vor'Cha or two, to be a bit more compelling, but I think it will still get the point across); it can be found at BattleClinic.Com in the replay section. If you count yourself as being a dedicated Klink player, are David Ferrell, or just want to see how to solo klink bases without taking a scratch, it might be worth looking at.
Post by: Wiz33 on February 28, 2003, 03:23:33 pm
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on February 28, 2003, 03:43:47 pm
Post by: SOS_Skorzeny on February 28, 2003, 03:45:42 pm
Quote:
Wiz on most server
So what are you telling us here? That you are really really good at most games? Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?
Hee hee!
*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)
Post by: SirWilliam on February 28, 2003, 04:11:55 pm
Quote:Quote:
Wiz on most server
So what are you telling us here? That you are really really good at most games? Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?
Hee hee!
*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)
ROFLMAO.
My monitor is now covered in a fine glaze of Cherry Coke.
SW
Post by: Wiz33 on February 28, 2003, 07:35:27 pm
Quote:Quote:
Wiz on most server
So what are you telling us here? That you are really really good at most games? Or that you have bladder control problems when playing on a server?
Hee hee!
*SOS-Skorzeny
(Cloaking quietly and very far away)
Hey, It's a left over from my D&D days. It has a lot of history behind it, including an incident with a thermonuclear hamster. :-P
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 01, 2003, 02:54:24 am
Alexander
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 01, 2003, 03:35:24 am
But don't believe me, believe the 1 MB replay at the BattleClinic...
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 01, 2003, 06:20:20 pm
Quote:
Klingons make up for innability to hit warp targets with less damage loss over range. Disruptors remain very strong at longer ranges, whereas phasers and Disruptor BEAMS tend to die of relatively quickly.
Alexander
Further examination of the weapons charts tends to contradict the less-degradation/inability-to-hit-warping-targets arguement on two points:
1.) Klingon dizzies don't have universally better decay rates. Type Is and IIs definitely do, which explains the higher prestige cost for these models, when compared to phasers; type IIIFs and IVFs have the same decay characteristics of their Fed counterparts; the type IVS has a slight advantage over the phaser XIIS; the type IIIS is actually marginally inferior to the phaser XIS.
2.) Looking at Romulan dizzies, their numbers suggest superior decay rates is a general characteristic of disruptors in general, rather than something specific to Klingon weapons. I base this on the rather favorable decay characteristics of of Romulan dizzy Is and IIs, as well as the fact that Romulan and Klingon standard disruptors tend not to degrade below two points of damage at maximum range, as opposed to phasers and cutting beams, which drop all the way down to one point of damage.
Post by: Lepton1 on March 01, 2003, 06:38:52 pm
As far as I am concerned it is a pvp game breaker. When someone can just warp jump away from you all the time and not get hit and as a klink you dont have the same advantage, it is totally unbalancing. There are innumerable battles against feds where I could have finished them off if they had not had the option to warp jump away and repair the entire time. Hell, that's part of the reason I switched to rom. Didn't want anyone to just be able to run away unscathed.
The solution is simple. No primaries able to hit ships at warp, ever. It's as abitrary as only one race not being able to, so why not. End of story.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 01, 2003, 07:01:07 pm
If you're creative, you can get around any opposing strategy.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 01, 2003, 11:56:58 pm
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 02, 2003, 01:30:52 am
1. No mechanics were carried over from SCF2. The entire setup is different because of the new abilities to assing your own weaponry and the fact that speed is no longer an energy drain. Don't blame old games for this one.
2. I'm sure the borg players bitch about no shields, the feds about no cloak, and I know the romulans complain about our weak assed hulls. I realise the federation SEEMS easier. But I choose not to play the federation because they are tactically limiting.
3. No one said you had to play klingon. If you can't get around being weak against warp dagger maneuvres, then pick a different weakness. I'm sure the klingon race will survive.
4. There is a difference between a bug and a feature. Taldren likes it this way. Deal with it, its more cannon.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 02, 2003, 02:02:21 am
1. The graphic for the SFC3 klink dizzie is exactly the same as SFC2, despite it is now a primary and not a heavy. Its bolt-like behavior is a hold over from SFC2. Everyone knows that. Taldren didnt want everyone to have phasers anymore, so they made klinks have "phaser" disruptors. The manner in which they have implemented it bespeaks of a certain intellectual laziness.
2. Not a good analogy. What would be more analagous to say would be if klinks did not have multi-volley on torps while everyone else does. Clearly, they do and that is balance. Every other race can hit ships at warp. Klinks cant for all intents and purposes. That is an inbalance. It is not some pseudo-fundamental race difference. It is a clear handicap.
3. As I said I dont play klink for this very reason. I usually go rom. I'll be damned if I am going to be saddled with some frigging nonsense handicap. And it is isnt warp dagger tactics that are of concern. If you had read my post with any care, you would have seen that the real prob lies in the fact that ships may warp jump away from a klink without reprisal and continue to do so while one gives chase. This allows opposing players to repair, shield regen, whatnot, with complete impunity while a klink or anyone else could never get away with that vs anyone else. Get your facts straight.
4. Cloaking was changed in the beta as was much else. Anything can be changed in the game if it is acknowledged as a clear problem. Canon? Let's not go there. Canon (whatever that is) gets violated practically everytime there has ever been anything put forth. Episodes and movies constantly contradict themselves. As Krotz I am sure will atest to, there have been numerous instances of beam-like dizzies on klink ships on DS9 especially on larger class ships. And as such, DS9 actually offers the most canon details on screen for TNG klinks as they figured highly in the war with the Dominion. So don't talk to me again about canon without being able to back it up. By the way, I have also seen Rom dizzies more often depicted as bolts in TNG on ST:TNG and nearly never as beams. So perhaps we could change the game to suit that bit of canon as well, so you can have the crappy dizzies.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 02, 2003, 02:50:50 pm
1. You're calling Taldren lazy because two weapons based off of the same weapon from the same show look similar?
2. The klingons aren't the first to be wiped out every game, (at least pre-patch), its usually the romulans. Obviously, its not THAT big of a weakness.
3. That IS the warp-dagger. Its not impossible to counter, it takes a few minutes for a ship to re-warp.
4. You don't seem to understand. Cannon would state that non-beam weapons (such as photon torpedoes) cannot be fired in a warp battle, wheras phasers can. Klingon ships you've seen firing beams were probably ion cannons. The only ship I've ever seen like that was the Vor'Cha class, and it only had ONE beam, which kind of supports that statement. They can't patch in an entirely new weapon. You're right, there is a limit to how much we can accept cannon, but in this case, it ADDS, rather than removes, from gameplay. Just because each race plays differently doesn't make it unbalanced. There are cheap tricks for each race. One could say that we should remove cloak-detect altogether, or make it so as you can't target subsystems on borg ships (perfectly cannon), except that would REMOVE from gameplay, rather than add.
Alexander
Post by: Thanos1 on March 02, 2003, 03:16:09 pm
Klingons are in a severe disadvantage when facing warpmaniacs. Any fed who tried to play warpmania vs me (playing as rom), however, got his hull torn to pieces. I would NOT have been able to do that if I was playing klink.
-suleo
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 02, 2003, 05:46:16 pm
)Alexander: "Canon" does not really belong in this discussion, and it sabotages your point anyways- (ST: Dorkism alert!) as stated in the official ST: DS9 Technical Manual, " It has been generally accepted that the photon torpedo is the weapon of choice for warp velocity ship-to-ship conflict, as well as the delivery system for non-standard delivery packages. Ship-mounted phasers have traditionally been of little use during warp flight, due to the light-speed barrier for EM energy." It does also note that "developments in subspace technology have pushed the phaser into the FTL arena, notably the ACB-jacketed beam device (see 14.1- this points to the the Defiant section, there's no further mention of such a weapon, but it seems it's not unreasonable to assume this points to the pulse phaser, which is ironic for reasons that are obvious)." Basically photons (and maybe pulse phasers) can hit targets at warp, regular phasers (and other such weapons) can't, according to ST canon; that such things are juxtaposed in the game isn't a big deal IMHO.
I don't know if the issue with bolt-firing weapons is intentional, I could just as easily see it being an unintentional side-effect of the way they were implemented. In either case, I submit it is a serious weakness in PvP, and it becomes a genuine exploitable problem when applied to Klink ai ships/bases/platforms, for as long as they don't have a ion or tachyon cannon, they are defenseless against warp tactics, as my replay at the BattleClinic demonstrates (if anyone thinks that the Defiant was the factor, I chose it because it was both readily available, as well as for all those hardpoints; a different ship, such as a Shrike, may take a little longer, but the outcome would remain the same, as I would happily demonstrate, if need be.)
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 02, 2003, 09:50:32 pm
Anyhow, you're right, as I later stated, the cannon really isn't the be all and end all. But still, if you can core rape the borg, you should be able to warp-out the klingons. EIther way you can get around it.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 02, 2003, 11:39:17 pm
The implementation of the klink dizzie is flawed for a number of reasons. First, it looks and acts like the SFC2 dizzie when clearly it is not. The klink dizzie is now a primary and not a heavy. Taldren had to make innumberable alterations or eradications of the essential SFC2 framework in SFC3, yet the dizzie still looks and acts the same way. Yet there is no reason why it should bear any resemblance to its SFC2 counterpart other than some vague notion of continuity and the unwillingness to write new weapons code for it for some reason. Case in point, the rom plasma. I have never seen any TNG, DS9, etc reference to plamsa yet here it is in SFC3. Why? Perhaps some tech manual somewhere says they still use it but reason away why it has never been seen in a TNG or DS9 episode. Who the hell knows? Note I have not seen Nemesis, so I dont know if plasma is in that. More likely, it is a SFC2 holdover, again vague notion of continuity with SFC2, etc. The point being that there were any number of conscious choices Taldren made that seem like holdovers from SFC2:
1. Anti-matter mine=nuclear space mine
2. Ion cannon=mauler
3. mines=mines (yeah there were lots of mines in TNG, lol)
4. marines=marines (again lots of raiding parties in TNG)
etc.
Taldren might have made any number of choices. When it came down to it, they bagged on real Borg, no cardies, no dominion, and left SFC2 stuff in that makes no sense in a TNG context. I suspect that their motives were to save as much development as possible hence the SFC3 SFC2 hodge-podge.
Second, all other primaries can hit targets at warp. Klink dizzies cannot for all intents and purposes. The tactical handicap is this among others. When an opposing players is damaged well enough that they feel uncomfortable taking weapons fire, they may warp jump away from you as a klink repeatedly and repair and shield regen. They may do this with impunity as you can never hit them with your dizzies. I am not speaking of defeating the warp dagger, an offensive stratgey. I am talking of defeating warp jumping, a defensive manuever. Every other race has the ability in the above scenerio to give chase to the wounded opponent at warp, drop out of warp as he turns to jump again away from you, and hammer him with full primaries as his shields drop in his warp jump. I have been lucky enough on occasion playing as a rom to take out half a hull when someone pulls this warp jumping crap. As a klink, you dont have this option to hit them at warp yet every other race does. So they can jump away from you all day if they like. That makes it unfair and unbalanced. And dont say, "Well just use a tach pulse or ion cannon". Those weapons are heavies and take up the heavies hard points take should have torps on them. Also, Tachs do very little damage and ion cannons do little damage at range which is the usual firing scenario in the case above. But that isnt the point. I shouldnt have to use inferior heavies or heavies at all to hit warping targets when every other race can with their primaries. In my tests with fed phasers a bank of 4 phaser IV's was delivering on average 10 points of internal damage from range 30 or so for warping targets. That seems like a clear and non-trivial advantage to me.
Third, the klink dizzie is non-unique and indistinct from fed phaser. The damage stats are nearly identical and as such it offers nothing to add to the race identity of the kliinks except a tactical disadvantage. The klink dizzie is the fed phaser is the rom dizzie is the borg cutting beam. They all are a fill-in for the ubiquitous phaser in SFC2 and as such shows Taldren's remarkable inability to think up something new for SFC3. Balance in SFC3 was foisted on the back of primaries being essentially the same, with minor race distinctions based on heavies. So either give me the tactical blandness of nearly identical yet balanced primaries, or create something novel that adds tactical depth, but dont handicap one race and says it adds depth or color to the TNG world of SFC3. It doesnt.
As to the D3 success of any race, that has more to do with number of players than race tech. Roms are constantly underplayed. As I have said, I usually go rom just for the fact that they were always getting trounced and the BLUE PLAGUE benefitted from having a whole empire they could just overrun at any time to gain victory points. The klink dizzie disadvantge is in pvp play not in the overall D3 campaign sense, although I will say that when I did play as a klink I am sure that being able to hit a target at warp would have surely helped me win a number of hexes. Now if we add that up over all klink battles ever fought, that sounds like a big difference to me although it may not be apparent on the surface of things.
Finally, regardless of canon/non-cannon arguements, there is much in SFC3 that is non-canon (again whatever that is) namely, mines, raiding parties, plasma, whatever. Taldren made conscious choices to keep somethings from SFC2, lose others, and make up some new things. Be that as it may, it was within their discretion to create primaries that behaved essentially the same, and for some reason they chose not to for the klink dizzie. To me, it doesnt make sense, is inbalancing, and is consistent in many ways with other SFC2 holdovers that demonstrate a lack of imagination on their part. You are free to disagree with me, but you would be wrong. Again, I say try klink for awhile and see how you find this lack of ability that all others have. You might feel different when you are the one being short-changed.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 03, 2003, 12:22:41 am
Alexander
Post by: Thanos1 on March 03, 2003, 08:53:11 pm
-suleo
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 03, 2003, 11:37:51 pm
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 04, 2003, 03:55:53 pm
Tachyons...not universally great weapons, but not without their perks. Definitely not a standard weapon on Klingon vessels, so it rather sabotages player ship customization if you're faced with the choice of either taking one in lieu of a weapon you'd rather have, or giving the warpmaniac free reign by not having one. Tachyons aren't especially accurate either, despite firing a beam, according to the weapons charts, they are typically less accurate than a torpedo at range, meaning keeping someone from going to warp isn't quite so "point-and-shoot" as you make it sound. Tachyons aren't on Klingon bases or platforms, and they aren't going to chase anyone down either, so they are quite vulnerable to warping torpedo runs by solo ships (I got a base assault against a Klingon starbase, using a Falcon w/ two medium plasmas, I'll have a replay of it posted tomorrow, as the Defiant is often regarded as an uber-ship).
Alexander, I think you are also discounting the worth of those free shots at armor/hull other races get at warping targets. I've had wingmen try to retreat off the map, only to have their warp core phasered out off them as they attempt to warp off the map...shooting out somebody's systems certainly beats having to carry around a tachyon pulse just to put some hits on shields. Also, while I haven't timed transition rates in the current build, did you know a ship with a legendary engineer (in previous builds) could actually go to warp roughly half-a-second before a ship could uncloak? Not so bad if you got beams you can overload and zap that fool with, not very cool if you got bolts that can't connect.
Note too, that while 35 points-per-AMM mine-cheese was not without counters, that didn't change the fact something was very broke in that dynamic.
My point is this: bolt-firing primaries, be they Klink dizzies or Fed pulse phasers, because they utilize the same mechanics of torpedos, have inherited the same deficiencies as torpedos when engaging targets at warp, i.e. they are only going to hit if fired more or less parallel to the target's course.Tthis was done intentionally with torpedoes; bolts might have been conciously have been left to be limited in the same way, or it may have been an oversight whose implications hadn't really been thought of at the time. In either case, I would contend that it puts Klingon players at an unnecessary disadvantage (imagine if your Rom boat just HAD to have a class-V transporter for some reason...you could be a real irritant to the Borg, but you'd probably rather have that mass allocated to a better cloak, armor, etc. as a perpective on citing "tachyon pulse" as the ultimate answer), makes Klink AI ships are abnormally vulnerable to offensive warp tactics, and makes it so bases and planets (which are vital strategic targets in dynaverse play do to economy ratings or VC conditions for the particular server) can be taken out by a single vessel (not a big deal in the initial release, but very much so considering the "toughened" versions of base/planet assault mssions in the beta patches) with minimal risk to the attacker (to see how, check out my replay at BattleClinic.com)...these factors point to a weapon system whose very exploitable weakness qualifies it a being label "broken" and in need of a fix (maybe doubling the velocity of dizzy and pulse phaser bolts?).
Just out of curiousity, I think I'll put up a poll on the subject tomorrow.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 04, 2003, 06:08:20 pm
Alexander
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 04, 2003, 06:30:50 pm
Alexander
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on March 04, 2003, 07:34:20 pm
As for Phasers being fired at Warp, look to ST:Voy: Message in a Bottle. The Prometheus wasted a Nebula at warp, with phasers. Never, NEVER take anything written in any book as cannon, (there are a few exceptions but those are few and far between, Taylor's two Novels about Janeway about sum it up) When thinking ST Cannon, you have approach it the same way you have to approach Star Wars Cannon...If it wasn't shown on the screen, it never happened.
I still dont think that sheilds should be dropped while at warp, but that seems to be common in most ST games since DW. Heck, look no further than the CGI movies included with the game. In the romulan scene, Klingon ships fired thier Dizzes at warp, Shrike disguised as Intrepid's shields absorb the hit, Raptor disguised as Neghvar fires romulan Dizzies (still at warp) destroying BoP.
Post by: Lepton1 on March 04, 2003, 09:32:43 pm
Its like you refuse to get it. Exotic heavies cost more, often take more mass, take up a hard point for a better heavy, and are not necessary for other races to hit ships at warp. And there is no chasing down someone warp jumping if they dont wish to be caught. The only recourse a player has to keep them from using it as a repair tactic is to chase at warp, drop out of warp while they are turning to jump off at a new angle, fire primaries when you go to warp as heavies won't track to hit them. Have you honestly never experienced the scenario I am describing, not to mention Krotz's warp dagger advantage against klinks? I think you are clearly just refusing to see our points. I get your points (other options, race differences, etc), but you clearly can't understand ours. What I object to in your arguements is the disregard it shows for some clearly articulated points on our part, while you have supplied almost nothing to bolster your points save objecting to what we say. If there is some great reason for handicapping one race, I sure would like to hear it, other than "well that's how it is in the game, so".
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 04, 2003, 09:49:25 pm
What's going on here is that you refuse to diversify tactics. You lost a fight, and now you're saying it should be changed so that a straight shoot-out will beat excellent tactics. This will never happen. Get over it. It can be done. And no, I don;t have a replay, I didn't have replay saving on until after I signed up for the Battleclinic.
Just give chase. Tactics can and will beat a straight shoot-out. The fact that some tactics work better against some races than others is meaningless. Warp Jump is no more effective against klingons than core raids are against the borg.
Alexander
Post by: Lepton1 on March 05, 2003, 02:04:53 am
I am sorry to say that I think you tip your hand a bit when it comes to tactical complexity. A Falcon with only heavy torps? Now that is cheesy. Decloak, fire. Whoopee! Hope that's fun for you. Perhaps you could write a C++ script to execute those monotonous "tactical" manuevers over and over again. Or do you snipe? I think you must have drunk the cool-aid to think there is anything tactical about SFC3. It's more like exploiting game silliness than tactics in most instances.
My point is simple and has very little to do with "tactics". The fact that all other races can hit warping targets is a significant disadvantage for klinks. The reason that it should be so is completely arbitrary, therefore why not change it to balance things out. Krotz and I have supplied two good examples of the present system's impacts on klink game play. While certainly almost any disadvantage can be overcome or lived-with, there is nothing to say it has to be the way that it is. Alterations have been made to the AMM, cloak, other features in beta patch. There is no particular reason why this should not be altered as well except for some vague arguements about race identity/differences. Should they have left cloak detect rates the same and said "oh well, that's the way it is, live with it or adapt."? I as a rom almost never used cloak and I think I was pretty successful doing so. I viewed it more as a defensive than offensive option. Be that as it may, there were significant enough complaints about cloaking for detection rates to be altered. I submit that the same conditions pertain here. If you so vehemently disagree with "race limitation whining" then I suggest you lead a campaign to revert cloaking detection rates to pre-patch levels and deal with it or get over it as you say. When shoe is on other foot, I am sure you would feel differently.
Post by: Praxis on March 05, 2003, 03:16:57 am
Making good use of tactics can overcome this problem. Heres an example. I went in a battle with me in a Defiant and a newbie in an Akira and wasted him
I went in battle again, same newbie and another newbie, FFA. The one i killed earlier decided to take a Defiant like me. So did the other newbie. So it was 3 players in Defiants. The two newbies dueled, while i stood aside and watched, keeping out of range. Neither took significant hull damage, but one lost quite a bit of shielding, and warped out. I pointed myself at the battlefield at a point just in front of the newbie who had not yet warped, and pressed warp. As i was flying at warp, he warped too, and since my course would have taken my in front of him, now he would pass in front of me. JUST as he was about to pass over me i slammed the firing button, hitting him with 4 quantums while we were BOTH moving at warp. (Legendary tactical officer lets me fire 2 shots per launcher ) he lost half his hull in an instant, then continued pursuing the other player, i jumped in and killed em both.Adjusting your course to go head-to-head while the other player is at warp and firing torps will offset the disruptor problem. If the player is coming at you, you can hit him, you only can't when he moves away. And when the other player is moving away, even phasers and romulan disruptors USUALLY can't hit him because of the angular velocity at that speed and angle.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 05, 2003, 06:35:32 pm
I completely fail to understand how ANY player could be so incompetant that they couldn't hit one key within the 7 seconds is takes to re-warp. just LISTEN for it. its not hard. Its true that you hit their shields. Its ALSO true that the bulk of their weaponry can't hit you, unless they're playing a chicken-mod ship, which most players DON'T. If it helps, set your combat speed to 7 instead of 9, then you'll have a full 12 seconds to hit the button.
Have you actually TRIED what I've been suggesting, or are you just assuming it doesn't work? Its hardly apples and oranges. Its the same situation exactly, but its a DIFFERENT way around it. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. If you want to describe it with foods, then you might equate it to a starving man in a desert. You're asking god for a cheeseburger, and completely IGNORE the perfectly edible cacti around you. They may be HARDER to eat. It may require you to WORK, and TRY NEW THINGS, but it will STILL save your life.
Alexander
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 05, 2003, 07:20:08 pm
Canon is an unreliable guide for what should be; it's often conflicting, even without application to SFC3, or any other ST game.
There is no more reason to assume bolt-warping target interaction is an intended feature, any more than one can assume the broken stardate advancement in SP campaigns are a feature. On the other hand, to say it's an oversight would be speculation. I would therefore suggest neither of these two standpoints are really pertinent, as this has yet to be commented on one way or another officially.
Alexander, I actually do agree with you this isn't a game breaker in PvP, in most situations anyways, though there are ways in which a skilled player can exploit it; Klink players fighting AI ships obviously don't have a problem; the ease of using offensive warp tactics against Klink AIs is somewhat disturbing, but even the largest AI DN can be felled by an intelligently flown DD, so that's not too big a deal; I do take exception to the notion of current bolt-behavior being okay when these factors are added to the ABSOLUTE EASE by which Klink bases can be warp-daggered to pieces, for little or no harm to one's own ship, even the measly Falcon w/ a pair of M-plasmas used in the replay I made just for you, Alexander ( here's the link @ battleclinic, don't worry it's pretty short ). Bases are potentially very important facilities on some servers, as they serve as AI spawn points (AIs can still impede movement, if nothing else), resupply points, can increase DVs for adjacent hexes, and can be key structures if part of VC conditions or when LOS/OA rules are in use (depending on the implementation). Klink planets are made more vulnerable by this as well, though it's generally a bit tedious to execute solo, because killing all those AI ships can take awhile; 3 DDs with quantums or medium plasmas (gravimetrics could do the trick too, but the aft arcs on Borg FFs and DDs are too narrow to get consistent use out of them; a diamonds front and side mounts would probably work though, haven't tried it yet) could do it pretty readily though. I invite you to try it, though don't use a Warbird or Scimitar, they're too wide, a Raptor should be okay though.
It's the cumulative ways (not even so much in PvP, as yes, a player can indeed partly compensate for it with good tactics) by which this deficiency can be exploited, which makes it broke, IMHO.
As I assume Alexander posted the poll here in the spirit of good intent, thank you, though I wish you would have waited, it probably would be more visible if it was its own topic, as opposed to being on the tail end post on this one.
Post by: Lepton1 on March 05, 2003, 09:17:33 pm
Post by: Scorpion on March 05, 2003, 11:01:49 pm
). If they kept warping around still after I cloak, I would just cruise around slowly and wait for them to warp close enough to me and at a good angle for me to get a good shot at them and then decloak soon enough to fire a nice shot off at them. I guess what I am trying to say here is that YES, I think that the klingon primaries are at a disadvantage, but there are still some ways to get around it. It's not really that big of a problem compared to the problems that plagued the romulans before the beta. ( BTW, I'm still mainly a Klingon player and won't let something like this stand in my way. )
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 05, 2003, 11:10:03 pm
BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors. I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.
This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.
Alexander
Post by: Cmdr. Krotz on March 06, 2003, 12:36:24 am
Quote:
BTW, its two H-Torps, no disruptors.
Not sure if this refers to the Falcon in my little demo, I just used mediums 'cuz lights took way too long, and you could conceivably still have some nominal disruptor armament, not that I was carrying anything like that at the time.
Quote:
I understand where you're coming from with bases, however. Maybe this could be helped by making it so as you have to wait after dropping out of warp to fire heavy weapons. Maybe just 2 seconds. It would be enough to make sure that a disruptor bolt would still hit.
Torps have always been able to fire at warp, likely inspired by ST:TMP, it's quite intentional, and not likely to change. Calling the attack runs on the bases "warp-daggers" was actually something of a misnomer, it's more like "warp-strafing", you start the warp out of the target's weapons range, launch your overloaded torps while still at warp, and don't stop warping until you are out of weapons range again. The only way you get hit is if a) you don't get an oblique enough angle; b) you are too wide, like a Warbird; or c) an AI ship is sitting on your vector when it fires...because you only need to drop out of warp to turn around/not overshoot map borders, I'm afraid your solution really wouldn't be applicable.
Quote:
This solution would minimize the damage to actual pvp fights, while still eleminating the base kill.
Alexander
I read this as implying you believe Klink dizzies being able to hit warping targets would be damaging to PvP fights. I'm curious, why? I can certainly understand wanting to stay conservative, from the standpoint of wishing to avoid opening a Pandora's Box of lending legimacy to silly requests like upping Polaron damage or having Borg pyramids that eat Sovs for breakfast to be more "canon", and other such nonsense; on the other hand I have a hard time seeing changing the bolts to allow them to hit warping targets as something that leads to Klingons becoming some kind of unbeatable Red Menace in PvP
(a charge, humorously enough, that might have been levied on the patched Romulans, were it not that the beta servers are relatively quiet...not that it should be implied I think that, it just seemed somehow ironic to me).
Post by: Lepton1 on March 06, 2003, 02:00:17 am
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 08, 2003, 02:37:31 pm
I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.
And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.
I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.
Alexander
Post by: KD4 on March 08, 2003, 11:07:40 pm
Quote:
What I meant was that firing while at warp should be removed altogether. is seems to me that that is what is causing problems.
I mention the PvP because the REST of us need to fire pretty damned fast to stop the warp daggers. (see above post on anti-warp tactics). I just find it completely unnessary to remove the klingons one major weakness. That would be like giving the borg shields to prevent core attacks, rather than just strengthening their cores. Players are smart enough to handle the problem, in all cases. Computer players don't really count for anything. Bases would be helped by this.
And 2 heavies is my custom falcon, that you said you were going to use, for some reason.
I mean, before, the Romulan cloaks could be broken like windows 95. Rather than go cannon and making cloak completely undeectable, they opted merely to lower probes, and nothing else in the Beta. It's made a world of difference, believe me.
Alexander
you realy cant belive this about it being the klingons only weekness if you do you realy need to fly klingon more because you apperantly have not played them much ether that or you are feeding us a bunch of s---
Post by: Blitzkrieg on March 09, 2003, 05:21:53 am
My overwealmingly blue oppinion on this is, that Klingons do good enough as it is. I played a coueple of warp dancing Fed DN's and found them to be easy targets in the grand scheme of things, especialy seems they lined up for a full frontal warp attack (how silly). Those K-Torps overloaded do a great deal of damage against there unprotected hulls, also the Ion cannon appears to hit a lot at warp (note, appears). This MORE than makes up for it, especialy when you consider the ability to cloak makes warp dancing tougher.
Post by: Alexander1701 on March 09, 2003, 12:32:54 pm
Alexander
Post by: Draco on March 09, 2003, 12:59:06 pm
Post by: TarMinyatur on January 17, 2019, 06:05:04 pm
Warp flybys of Klingon bases and planets would not be so easy.
My 535 build of SFC3.exe will fix this problem, 15 years late, but better than never.
Post by: Javora on January 17, 2019, 09:39:06 pm
Post by: TarMinyatur on January 18, 2019, 02:59:39 am
I tried to destroy a Klingon Battlestation in a light cruiser via the brilliant warp flyby tactic. It's an easy task against speed-650 bolts. I cannot easily win if the base has speed-2000 bolts. The damage on bare hull adds up, just as it does when facing Fed, Rom, and Borg bases.
0x0001DF1D is the address of the little-endian float variable for internal Disruptor Bolt speed.
Default bytes are 00 20 CB 45 (6500.0f).
I recommend 00 40 9C 46 (20000.0f).
Klingon planets, ships, and bases will no longer be extremely easy to defeat with warp strafing.
The other races can easily hit warping targets with Phasers, R-Disruptors, and Cutting Beams. The Klingons (or any race that uses Disruptor primary weapons) can do that too with faster Disruptor Bolt speed.