Dynaverse.net
Taldrenites => Dynaverse II Experiences => Dynaverse II Materials, Resources and Info => Topic started by: Brezgonne on August 11, 2006, 12:50:01 am
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Starting off with:
Kzinti DDL: It's incorrectly listed as a war destroyer which is causing it to cost about five times more than it should in the shipyard. THe base DDL is supposed to have range 30 disruptors. The firing arcs are supposed to be FA, NOT FA+L/R (Can't have everything). Now if you want to leave the arcs like that I'm sure the Kzinti players will be happy with it but it's technicly supposed to be FA. You already fixed the YIS date.
The CVE+ is missing it's other two drone racks.
Thats all I remember at the moment.
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Lyran power refits and the argument over whether the Z-CD is supposed to thave a DC of 6 or 12.
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this is useless, send PMs. This thread will get lost
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Lyran power refits and the argument over whether the Z-CD is supposed to thave a DC of 6 or 12.
Firesoul gave the Z-CD a 12 drone control because it has Scout sensors and would be able use these for the additional dorne control.
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this is useless, send PMs. This thread will get lost
But we'll miss the flames :huh:
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this is useless, send PMs. This thread will get lost
But we'll miss the flames :huh:
I know, Kroma and Judge were both good wingmen . . .
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I find it easier to manage such lists in one thread as opposed to PMs myself, it keeps everything in one place. Seemed to work for Firesoul well enough. I could move the thread to "Dynaverse II Materials, Resources and Info", rename it "Slave Girls Mod Corrections" and sticky it if that would help?
I often find myself wishing there was the ability to search PMs. With my archive of 1934 old PMs sometimes it gets pretty difficult to find old stuff with just the sort by sender or date features. I might write a PM search function at some point, I've found myself needing one enough times by now.
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this is useless, send PMs. This thread will get lost
But we'll miss the flames :huh:
I know, Kroma and Judge were both good wingmen . . .
Groan.... ::) Bad pun. Bad DH. :D
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I also think the DDL is supposed to have only add6 racks till 75 when it gets B's. Should it have an M variant? Most other miraks seem to have them.
Also, the doomsday monsters are scenario specific and show up in the new crop of ED missions and should be taken out of the shiplist and replaced with Andromedans, Tholians, other monsters or whatever.
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Kzinti DDL:
like the other command units it should have the 2 C racks and 2 B racks from it's inital YIS date. It gets reloads with the Y175 refit and gets the ADD12 along with everyone else (that one's my screw up Diz; wasn't paying attention).
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B11, B11K, not in the list.
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Damage control ratings need be checked.
Generally some ships have more and less damage control than other ships. So not all BC's have 15, not all DN's have 20. Discussing this...
But the ICCX is at 15, not 20 but is charged more X points. Mb make it 20.
Ideas...
C8V's give more drone racks?
Limit 1 fast cruiser per fleet.
Limit 1 escort per fleet unless escorting a Carrier.
Change Mirak CF to later FYA.
Phase out CS+ when NCL comes out.
DVL's are uber for their FYA's...
Remove commando ships .5 move cost and down. Remove commando ships altogether if ship capture/assignment feature isnt working.
K-WD5 model size too small.
Romulan list needs to be cleaned up a bit. SNAR is still showing in 2285.
Do the NHK and RHK have casual tender variants?
Does the RSUN and SUT have twin shuttle launch?
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C8V's give more drone racks?
Yes, make it more like the one we used in the GW series. I don’t mind added more drone racks but we gotta playtest this thoroughly. Last time we did this, it was fine compared to Feds and Kzinti but utterly owned the Hydrans do we gotta be careful.
We should replace to F-racks that we added for Scaterpack fuel with B-racks all around.
Change Mirak CF to later FYA.
the CF might be okay with the current FYA if the DC is reduced to 6. Must play test.
Phase out CS+ when NCL comes out.
I’m cool with this. There are other options that can be explored but I’ll do this first.
DVL's are uber for their FYA's...
All DNLs are a bit much, if you think the F-DVL is specificly bad, catagorize
Remove commando ships .5 move cost and down. Remove commando ships altogether if ship capture/assignment feature isnt working.
We should yank them all, they show up as AI way too often and nobody flew them anyway.
K-WD5 model size too small.
There are abunch of Model size issue but this is the most blantantly obvious
Romulan list needs to be cleaned up a bit. SNAR is still showing in 2285.
Yes, the CE is also a good joke also
Do the NHK and RHK have casual tender variants?
They should, I’ll add them if they were left out
Does the RSUN and SUT have twin shuttle launch?
I can see this being a 2. The Shuttle rate on some of the Gorn carriers is off to. I’ll se that the same as the G-CC
Other notes:
Gorn FYAs: The Gorns don’t get the F torps on cruisers until 2275 because that is when they entered the General war. 2270 is a more realistic date.
X- Lights need more playtesting against each other.
The X-Droners are just silly, the K-D5XD, Z-MDXD (or WTF it’s called) and the F-DGX need review and discussion.
FiCons: Um, keep ‘em or can ‘em?
PF Flotilas. I like them
Fleeting in general needs to be discussed when we get a chance, We should take a few days off to see out families and get some whores.
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YLA out ships without mech links when mech links come out. Missions tend to draw the linked variants anyway.
Yards need cleaning up - restrict freighters and unused HDW's, etc.
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YLA out ships without mech links when mech links come out. Missions tend to draw the linked variants anyway.
Dont want to do this. It tends to make the difficulty of the mission too great. If every mission had casual tender Ai it'd drive me nuts.
Yards need cleaning up - restrict freighters and unused HDW's, etc.
Can't special out freighters. The server needs to build them. The gf settings can be adjusted so the shipyards arnt cluttered with them. They are so cheap in bpv that at even the lowest setting some are built. Deal.
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Yes, make it more like the one we used in the GW series. I don’t mind added more drone racks but we gotta playtest this thoroughly. Last time we did this, it was fine compared to Feds and Kzinti but utterly owned the Hydrans do we gotta be careful.
Four F racks or four B racks? Hrmmm. Mb 6 F racks?
the ZCF might be okay with the current FYA if the DC is reduced to 6. Must play test.
Ahhh, I like this idea. But I think 8 rear firing phasers are still pretty uber on that yfa.
There are other options that can be explored about the CS+ but I’ll do this first.
Like what? But ya... its a silly ship to fly at all. So YLA when the NCL is out. But I'm a silly person. ;D
All DNLs are a bit much, if you think the F-DVL is specificly bad, catagorize
Ultra cheese would be my catagorization. ;) I'm just looking at the other DN's side by side with the DNL's. Its ridiculous the differences. Why would standard DN's EVER be even considered next to a DNL? The discrepancies with the weapon loadouts and power curves are amazing. We need to delve firther into this...
We should yank all commandos, they show up as AI way too often and nobody flew them anyway.
Agreed. Seems the only time capture is an option is when you jump an enemy player after a planet assault or something.
There are abunch of Model size issue but the K-WD5 model size is the most blantantly obvious
What are the others?
I'll add the NHK and RHK casual variants if needed.
I didnt see em in the list. Confirm for me.
Other notes:
Gorn FYAs: The Gorns don’t get the F torps on cruisers until 2275 because that is when they entered the General war. 2270 is a more realistic date.
Wow... big change there. But I wonder if we did if anyone would notice. ;) What are the matchup differences between 2270-72? Mb a less advanced move up like 2272 would be better, I dunno. Why 70?
The X-Droners are just silly, the K-D5XD, Z-MDXD (or WTF it’s called) and the F-DGX need review and discussion.
They are a bit ott. The DX5D needs 2 more Ph1's to be OTT, tho. :P
FiCons: Um, keep ‘em or can ‘em?
Keep em!
PF Flotilas. I like them
I playtested them during the campaign. I found they are not uber at all. Their Achilles Heal is their mothership. You lose that you're toast. I suggest adding a bunch of excess damage as they get killed far too easily and then u lose the whole squad.
Also, I suggest drastically reducing their bpv. Most are 160 bpv. I say cut it to 100 or even less in the case of Lyrans. The Ai missions would still be tough. Course we could get techincal about this and the droner races we could add a bit and the plasma a lot. But 160 I found to be too high. Mise well buy a real tender ship for that.
Mb Lyran PF's should have Ph1's. They suck so awfully bad and no, Hexx didnt pay me any money to say that.
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DH's Shiplist Notes/Ideas for SGO7 (So far)
Feds:
- Phase out the F-CS+ for when the NCL comes out
- Send the F-DVL to cheese Hell where it belongs.
- F-DNH - Remove 1 AMD12, lower DC to 6.
Klingons:
- 2 B-racks on all Small Carriers
- C8VK (From OP+) + 4 B-Racks, - 2 Dirupters, -2 Phaser 1s. this will put the ship a lot more in line to the Z-CVAR
- Playtest the C10K against the other DNHs of the Racial enemies (NOT just the Feds!!) Current test shows it OWNs the Regent Hydran Heavy DN
- B10k should be the only available BB (FYA to be determined). Fleeting rules to be determined later, based on Play-testing, will control the Cheesiness.
Lyran
- FYA for Powerpack Refits
Mirak:
- CF needs some tweaks to be discussed
- I think the NCF is fine for it's Era
- Spare on DNH not correct.
Romulans:
- Will check the FYAs on all ships to phase out crap
- Casual Tenders for the Hawks will be added if missing
Hydran
- REGent Heavy DN needs Something, it's the bitch of the DNHs
DNLs
- Get rid of them unless Cost of Build OOB is used and there are no DNMs to upgrade to. Change the FYA on the Improved DNs (F-DN+ for example) to match the FYAs of the DNLs
Commando ships:
- Will be removed, nobody flies them and the are AI and shipyard SPAM
PFs
- FiCons stay
- Solo Squads stay, I like them a lot. Possibly change some rules to make them more enticing to fly as they are a lot of fun
- Explore Lyran PF modification,
X-tech
- Play-test the X-lights, espicially the ones converted using SFB rules that are not stock.
- I still think the Droners need to go, I include the F-DGX as I think it is a bit much as well
- Discuss/Explore/Playtest Partial-X (XP) as an option to keep line ships relavant in the "Cheese and Chase" era.
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Check the YFA's for all ships- Klingon D5P/D6P/DWP all have YFA's of 14- should be 16 (when the K-INT is out)
Check the YLA's for all ships- Lyran CC+ has YLA of 39, should be 11 (When the CCH is out)
- Improved Klingon fighter early (73)- clone a F18- the SPD 26 and DroI are the important bits
-Get rid of the Fi-Cons, they simply magnify the already large gap between plasma-noplasma PF's
- Fed CLX conversion (if used) should be toned down a touch- conversion looks to be based off the CLC rather than the NCL+
(if it balancs out fine- no worries-just thought I'd point it out)
-Klingon D5XD conversion (again if used) by every conversion formula should have 8 Ph1's (along with it's 8 drone racks)
(Really I'd agree this and it's Kzin/Fed equivalants should be removed)
- Fix Lyran CVD (fighters need to be L-Swift, not K-swift)
-Gorn have 2xCVP's. no CVD is listed
-A10's should only be on CVAs....
- Given the superiority (and CJ nature) of teh Fed PF's maybe eliminate Fed casual tenders?
- Just to confirm- there are alot of casual Hawk tenders missing (No FFH-Kf, No NHKf, No FH-Pf )
- Kzin BF should already have 6 drone control . Again was the upgrading of this ship necessary? Or simply because players felt they needed it.
(not sarcasm-don't fight plasma)
-Z-NCF was also upgraded above and beyond (dunno if they mentioned this to you)
-Klingon C10K should be fine- was someone actually claiming it's to weak?
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-A10's should only be on CVAs....
- Given the superiority (and CJ nature) of teh Fed PF's maybe eliminate Fed casual tenders?
Only if CnC is applied to all the races, currently the Plasma racves have no CnC. A Speed 20 fighter with a range 4 weapon is not ubber.
I think the Fed PFs coiuld go for a little nerfing, possible stripping some more internals if possible to make them more fragile. But no, that ain't going to happen :P
Add to my Suggestions:
Federation:
- F-DNH - Remove 1 AMD12, lower DC to 6.
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Personally I'd think the Lyran DNH is fairly well matched against the Reg.
I'd hate to see the Reg (like the Kzin CF/NCFetc) gain more PVP power against their Lyran equivalant.
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- Question was raised if the C7T and D5T (??) could be put back in the list.
- Perhaps rename all PF's across all the races so each has PF,PFP,PFB,PHwhatever so a simple easy to use chart
can be placed.
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- Question was raised if the C7T and D5T (??) could be put back in the list.
Not while I draw breath
Can Fed ships get a B turnmode? It is as ridiculous of a request.
- Perhaps rename all PF's across all the races so each has PF,PFP,PFB,PHwhatever so a simple easy to use chart
can be placed.
Not a bad Idea, but I dont' think it's that complicated. Pehaps a chart of What Pfs had what weapons on an Excel sheet could be useful.
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Personally I'd think the Lyran DNH is fairly well matched against the Reg.
I'd hate to see the Reg (like the Kzin CF/NCFetc) gain more PVP power against their Lyran equivalant.
Against an L-DNHT? On what planet does this stack up well?
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Not while I draw breath
Can Fed ships get a B turnmode? It is as ridiculous of a request
<shrug> said I'd ask- I think the C7T would be OK (don't honestly remember anyone flying one)
Dunno why there was a D5T, think the D7 should be fine..
Not a bad Idea, but I don't think it's that complicated. Perhaps a chart of What Pfs had what weapons on an Excel sheet could be useful.
I don't think it's that complicated either, yet it was asked time and time again on VT.
Against an L-DNHT? On what planet does this stack up well?
All things (pilot skill etc) being equal 8 Hydran St fighters will kill 4 Lyran PF's
Each squad of 4 can easily one shot one PF.
With those 2 out, the Lyran ship has an advantage yes- but I don't think it's an overwhelming one.
I'm not trying to criticize what you guys are trying to do (although.. I know it's what I'm doing)
All I'm saying is -does it need to be upgraded? No it's not as good as a C10K, (which I understand was upgraded to meet the Fed DNH)
but does it have to be? I'd argue the Lyran DNH isn't as great as either of them either. I'm not arguing for an upgrade though.
Perhaps it would be better if I said (not that anyone listens to me anyway :P ) to..maybe try a minor adjustment first?
I don't know who's idea it was for the Kzin BF/NCF upgrade, but that was kinda way ott for no real good reason.
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More to come!! Dizzy, this is what I've done so far for the 6.1 testing . . . .
Federation:
- F-CS+: LYA changed to 7. Leave 1 year of overlap with the NCL
- F-DNH : DC set to 6. 1 AMD12 removed
- F-DNM: DC set to 6. 3 AMD6 Removed
- Federation PFs side and back shielding reduced
Klingon:
- K-C10K: Set back to “stock” for testing. DC stays at 12.
- K-C8VK: 4 B-racks added. 2 Disrupters (FX) removed. 2 Phaser 1 removed. Ship is very close to Z-CVAR
- 2 B-racks added to small carriers.
- Check the YFA's for all ships- Klingon D5P/D6P/DWP all have YFA's of 14- should be 16 (when the K-INT is out)
Lyran:
- Lyran CC+ has YLA of 39, should be 11 (When the CCH is out)
- Fix Lyran CVD (fighters need to be L-Swift, not K-swift)
Gorn:
- Redundant CVP removed
- Shuttle launch rate on carriers corrected
Hydran:
- H-REG removed (h variant comes out the same year)
- H-REG+ (2 more Gats) added FOR TESTING ONLY SO NOBODY FLIP OUT!!!!!
Romulan:
- R-FFH-Kf, R-RHKf, R-NHKf added
Kzinti:
- Z-BF: FYA changed to 2268. DC was already 6. Phaser arcs changed so less fire backwards.
- Z-DNH Power set back to stock for Testing
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Do you have the actual correct refits of the Lyran ships or do you need them?
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And (damn drugs messing up my sleep ) playing devils advocate- so far the changes are
(99% in jest cuz I'm bored- some concerns may arise, of course will wait to see "final" fixes)
-Fed CS+(unique) left in- LYA changed for 1 year overlap of NCL (which happens to be YFA of NCL+)
-Fed PF's- reduced already minimal shileding- still hands down the best PF in the west
Fed-DN's reduced massive AMD count (...I respect this, even if they are still practically immune to drones.. sure there's not going to be backlash?)
Klingons
-improvements to carriers, fighters still suxxor (do people still say suxxor?probably not eh? really need to get out more)
Lyrans
-fixes to shiplist
no improvements to general ships to match improvements to other races ships-
sure we'll never have to fight them so it won't be an issue ::)
Gorn
- Alliance ship-gets F torps (we know it's coming)
(plasma race gets improvement, if Lyran were only Kzin maybe they'd get something as well )
Hydrans
-First of a bazillions gats going to be added to the Reg+,
(no improvements to Lyran ships planned)
Roms
-Get some casual tenders they should have had <cough*conspiracy*cough> still don't seem to have the all cool FH-Pf
Kzin
-Keep improved BF's (that are of course to help vs plasma, fact they outgun Lyran ships deemed irrelevant)
(no improvement to Lyran ships planned)
Z-DNH power...reduced???
DAMN!! How did I miss something like that.
(must make note to check all Kzin and Hydran ships against SSD's, see what else has been snuck in)
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Kzin
-Keep improved BF's (that are of course to help vs plasma, fact they outgun Lyran ships deemed irrelevant)
(no improvement to Lyran ships planned)
And what year do the Lyran BCHs start coming out?
If the Moggy BCH was being used you might have an argement here, if it isn't you might want to keep quite as this point of view would suggest its inclusion ;) I fought Risky in a couple of Z-BF vs L-BF matchups and it is really a pretty close fight, especially when you realize a fair portion of these fights may occur when the Kzin doesn't have a full drone load. DH is already reducing the number of rear firing phasers, with that change I don't think the Lyran CF will be at a disadvantage at all.
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** Again haven't seen the final list, so don't want to get ahead of anything here**
But..
As long as the Lyran BCPP is a metal ship it doesn't matter.
-I'm not saying the Kzin BF isn't needed-I don't know
I DO know that there were a heck of alot of Kzin BF kills on SGO6 for a "almost balanced" ship
It is a ship that (even with a YFA of 68) can outrun or outgun any Klingon ship (until 75, and then the NCF(with upgrade) is available
-can outrun and outgun (although far more marginally) any Lyran ship (with the obvious exception of said BCPP) in it's timeframe
(dunno what the new arcs are like- remember Lyran don't have the best arcs either)
-with 4 drone racks is an above average hex flipper
So you have a ship (that I'm told) was created to balance out the PVP ability of the Roms- although the Roms (I don't believe) were given anything to balance out the
hex flipping ability of the Kzin
A ship that can still (as mentioned) flip hexes better than most and (again) arguably (Ill use arguably- haven't slept and I admit my thinkings not 100%)
can outrun and outgun any Lyran or Klink ship it's likely to face.
A ship that's upgraded to another upgraded CF version that it could be argued outguns (2x Cracks & 2Bracks) the (admittedly stupid) K-FDW
(and is still a better hex flipper)
**haven't slept and I admit my thinkings not 100%** <---- reposting this in case something here came across as offensive. Didn't mean it.
Now Dizzy's proposed (and hopefully used )rule to consider CF's as Capitla ships will of course lessen teh effect- but it'ss till going to be heck of a PVP ship in a solo fight.
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Z-DNH power...reduced???
DAMN!! How did I miss something like that.
(must make note to check all Kzin and Hydran ships against SSD's, see what else has been snuck in)
Thse are non-complete Tentative changes dumbass. The Power was reduced to STOCK, it had gotten a bump for SGO6 but we never really tested it.
Again, not done yet, that was just what was done last night
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Do you have the actual correct refits of the Lyran ships or do you need them?
Post them here and I will make the corrections tonight
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look, the Z-BF is a BS Cheese-ship but I don't think it will be that bad with eh new FYA of 2268. By that point the Klinks start getting more AMD and the Lyrans are getting power refits.
Fleeting rules clasifying CFs as metal to prevent them from flying with Dreads and/or each other should finally make them reasonable so either way it should not be a big deal.
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how about the romulan cl "f" refits also
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-Fed CS+(unique) left in- LYA changed for 1 year overlap of NCL (which happens to be YFA of NCL+)
If the NCL comes out in 6, then the YLA for the CS+ should also be 6. That way they both show in the yards on that stardate for a year of ovelap. If you dont want any overlap, phase them out at 5 if the NCL comes in at 6. 7 gives you 2 years of overlap, the same year and another... too much
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Do u want the serverside list from sg6, it has a few corrections we made mid server. Or use the revision list and just update that to include what was done to the serverside.
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how about the romulan cl "f" refits also
Which ships? SPL+ and what else is missing?
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Do u want the serverside list from sg6, it has a few corrections we made mid server. Or use the revision list and just update that to include what was done to the serverside.
Argh, I already started. Just PM me the changes you guys made serverside and I'll incorporate them in the BETA list
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Dizzy, should I do the DCR reduction to the SPecialtie ships or hld off on it until we decide we want to do this?
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Dizzy, should I do the DCR reduction to the SPecialtie ships or hld off on it until we decide we want to do this?
Hold off for now, but CF's should get a DCR of 1 and DNL's 2.
Lets see... the serverside changes.... the ISC CCZ(f)/BCV all had their DCR increased to 3. I'll check to see what else was done. Basically some K-swifts to L-swifts in the lyran carriers...
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Some of this may seem confusing as (as I've mentioned0 FS seems to have reversed the power and phaser refits
(althought the phaser refits were available from 68, for "balance" I'll leve them out until the year they became "common" for that ship)
L-DN
LDNP add 4 APR 1 Battery (to the base DN)(YFA 5 YLA 6) (Replaces DN)
DNP+ add 8 pts each to shleld 3,4,5 replace 1 Ph3 LS,1 Ph3 RS with Ph1's (to the DNP) (YFA 7,YLA 16)
L-DNL
No refit years given- everything available from start. Simply YFA DNLPp 5
BC
L-BCP add 8 APR 2 Battery (to the BC)(YFA 5,YLA 6) (Replaces BC)
L-BCP+ add 8pts to shield 3,4,5 ,replace 1 Ph3 LS,1Ph3 RS with Ph1's (to the BCP)(YFA 7,YLA 16)
CWL
CWLPp available from YFA 5 (replaces CWL,CWLp)
CWEP replaces CWE (YFA 8 )
CWPp replaces CWP (YFA 5 )
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Ya, I know FS did some funky things with the lyrans. I hope DH knows wtf u are trying to explain to him, Hexx, because it looks too confusing for me.
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I have no idea what he did for some of them
-basically these dates give the power refit when it's first available on these ships (68)
but leaves the phaser & shiled refits off until the date they were common.
(Except for the DNLp which wasn't given info for either)
Of course with the apparent conitnued uparming of our neighbors ships we reserve the right to demand more stuff.
(looking forward to the day where all Hydran and Kzin are given an extra 6 PhGs to deal with the fact they might not be better than every other ship in PVP and hex flipping missions :P )
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Of course with the apparent conitnued uparming of our neighbors ships we reserve the right to demand more stuff.
(looking forward to the day where all Hydran and Kzin are given an extra 6 PhGs to deal with the fact they might not be better than every other ship in PVP and hex flipping missions :P )
HA! I am still waiting on my extra PhG's to counter the extra drones the Klinks got to put them on par with the Feds the first time!!!
Thankfully, they have been removed... but now here we go again...
IE:
Klingon:
- K-C10K: Set back to “stock” for testing. DC stays at 12.
- K-C8VK: 4 B-racks added. 2 Disrupters (FX) removed. 2 Phaser 1 removed. Ship is very close to Z-CVAR
- 2 B-racks added to small carriers.
- Check the YFA's for all ships- Klingon D5P/D6P/DWP all have YFA's of 14- should be 16 (when the K-INT is out)
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Anotehr idea- why not do the next SG (or whatver you two are working on) server as
F-R-L-I vs K-H-G-Z
Give everyone another look at what it's like to fly with/against some of the stuff that's out there
over the course of a server.
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Of course with the apparent conitnued uparming of our neighbors ships we reserve the right to demand more stuff.
(looking forward to the day where all Hydran and Kzin are given an extra 6 PhGs to deal with the fact they might not be better than every other ship in PVP and hex flipping missions :P )
HA! I am still waiting on my extra PhG's to counter the extra drones the Klinks got to put them on par with the Feds the first time!!!
Thankfully, they have been removed... but now here we go again...
IE:
Klingon:
- K-C10K: Set back to “stock” for testing. DC stays at 12.
- K-C8VK: 4 B-racks added. 2 Disrupters (FX) removed. 2 Phaser 1 removed. Ship is very close to Z-CVAR
- 2 B-racks added to small carriers.
- Check the YFA's for all ships- Klingon D5P/D6P/DWP all have YFA's of 14- should be 16 (when the K-INT is out)
I think the real lesson learned here is that the Fed ships should be toned down to match the Klinks, not the other way around :P
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I think the best thing is to stop acting like this is a game instead of a simulation, not everyone is supposed to be on par with everyone else.
Hell, it ain't good enough for folks that the klinks that they will have the only BB?
What you propose sounds like the Treaty for the Limitation and Reduction of Naval Armament of 1930.
'You will only build ships up to 30,000 tons, only arm them with up to 9 16" guns and up to 20 secondary guns....' ::)
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I think the best thing is to stop acting like this is a game instead of a simulation, not everyone is supposed to be on par with everyone else.
Hell, it ain't good enough for folks that the klinks that they will have the only BB?
What you propose sounds like the Treaty for the Limitation and Reduction of Naval Armament of 1930.
'You will only build ships up to 30,000 tons, only arm them with up to 9 16" guns and up to 20 secondary guns....' ::)
Whoops didn't know this was serious..
With the ability to field one while the Feds field 2xDNH's, not really (have to ask the Klinks though-I dunno)
And ~ simply for fed/klink baalnce
With the Feds having better attrition units (fighters) before PF's
With the Feds getting better attrtion unit after PF's (..uhmm PF)
With the Feds having the best metal (DNH,DNL,DVL)
Feds having better CF
Feds having better carriers (across the board- did I mention the better fighter as well?)
Feds getting the CS+
BCH's are easily a trade off (I;d give advantage C7, but keep hearing the BCF is somehow good?)
Klinks get a trade off (heck call it a better) CWL
and easily (imo anyway) a better droner
Yes it's a game, based on a game
A Game based on a game that worked it's balance through the idea the "good guys get good stuff, bad guys get numbers"
Something we can't approximate here.
I think they're doing a good job trying to balance the stuff. I just think they've started to go to places they didn't need to.
(again-why do the Kzin need a ship to fight plasma? Are the plasma races getting a better hex flipper earlier?)
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This is a mod correction thread, not a debate thread. Stop posting diatribes. Your concerns are falling on deaf ears. I'll not entertain newcomers to shiplist corrections when they have missed the last 12 server revisions and dont know any of the 'why's' things were done.
Afa the Klink carriers with droners, they have seesawed between no drones, F and B racks and back again. Cutting thru the reasoning over the last few years of their dev work, it comes down to this, finding the right balance is tough because making them attractive enough for a klink player to fly but at the same time w/o making them unbalanced vs their traditional enemies is such that compromise is nearly never achieved.
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THIS IS ALL BETA.
Chilll out. We will test stuff before going live and if any of my ideas are too much, they will be toned down or removed.
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Whoops didn't know this was serious..
It is never that serious.
But the last upgrade of the Klink carriers resulted in a n00b fighter jock (KBF guy, can't remember the name) ran modified K-C8VK pwning my H-ID so quickly it wasn't even funny.
And Dizzy, STFU, I have been involved in play testing shiplists before and have been against adding (more) drone racks to the klink carriers from the begining.
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The drone fighter vs Stinger issue is still a big one.
All other things being equal, 16 ZY's or TADS will absolutely laugh at 16 Stingers of either variety.
There's not much we can do about the stupidity of the fighter AI, but adding racks to Klink carriers does exacerbate one already heinous problem.
What exactly is wrong with Klink carriers, other than the fact that none of the Klink pilots know how to fly one?
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I'd prefer to see the C8VK lose 2x Dizzies and gain 2 B racks, not the way DH has it current. But it needs to be playtested and since you are so passionate about it, bear, you can stfu yourself and be the c8v canon fodder in the ID. And I dont care how many shiplists you've tested. SG shiplist isnt a shiplist, it's art. You dont have to be qualified or have experience for this... You see that crap they put up in the musuem of Chicago? 3 year old did it. Looks like the same exact abstract sh*t adults do.
You need to grasp something, this shiplist work is an art form. Let it move you. Let it awe you. That is all.
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There's not much we can do about the stupidity of the fighter AI, but adding racks to Klink carriers does exacerbate one already heinous problem.
Especially when they take heavy drones and wipe out one or two fighter groups....
And Dizzy,
Consistency, please....
First it is:
I'll not entertain newcomers to shiplist corrections when they have missed the last 12 server revisions and dont know any of the 'why's' things were done.
Now it is:
You dont have to be qualified or have experience for this...
:screwloose: :screwloose: :screwloose:
*snicker*
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All other things being equal, 16 ZY's or TADS will absolutely laugh at 16 Stingers of either variety.
What exactly is wrong with Klink carriers, other than the fact that none of the Klink pilots know how to fly one?
Im not too concerned witht he difference between the c8v having 2 or 4 B racks compared to the H-ID. This has always been a bit of a mismatch. Nothing we can do about it really. The main focus is balancing the C8V vs the Z-cva. How attractive can we make the C8V to a klink player w/o it upsetting the balance vs the zcva? You need to also put into perspective that there usually wont ever be more than one of these on the board at a time.
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Bear, its all arbitrary. I cant believe you needed me type it out for you. Now Im beginning to explain it to you. Its NEVER a good idea to hash this kinda stuff out in public. So gay... DH u have a PM.
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we'lll make a couple of varients of the C8VK to test. I think Dizzy's proposal is preobrably the most reasonable.
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All other things being equal, 16 ZY's or TADS will absolutely laugh at 16 Stingers of either variety.
What exactly is wrong with Klink carriers, other than the fact that none of the Klink pilots know how to fly one?
Im not too concerned witht he difference between the c8v having 2 or 4 B racks compared to the H-ID. This has always been a bit of a mismatch. Nothing we can do about it really. The main focus is balancing the C8V vs the Z-cva. How attractive can we make the C8V to a klink player w/o it upsetting the balance vs the zcva? You need to also put into perspective that there usually wont ever be more than one of these on the board at a time.
How does the ID fair against a Z-CVA? How the Z-CVA is harder than the C8VK that loses 2 dizzies and gainst 2 B-racks. Hydran and mirak have fought many times, even when the Mirak fighters were greatly superior to the Klingon.
t00l's right, we really can't do anything about the fighters being so fricking stupid.
Guys, please be nicer to each other. I like the idea of sharing ideas in a open forum for feedback, this is a brainstorming sessions where a lot of ideas will come out. Some are good, some are bad. I prefer to present everything in the open and then wittle away the crap.
This can work as long as everyone is nice to each other.
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I have fought twice against a Z-CVA flown by Fluf with myself in an H-ID. Once I beat him. The other time, I j'inned myself (I didn't know rotating rocks needed extra clearance back then ::) ), but was handing him his ass before I did it.
I also curtailed 2 Z-CVA's while flying a F-BCF. But that is probably not relevant.... especially since one was J'inn (can't remember who the other was)
Edit: This was back before SFB fighters, I had HornetIII's and they were sporting the mobile SP's known as MastiffIII's.
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The last time I fought an ID vs Z-CVA match was on SS2, long before the last patch which frakked fighter interaction. I won it then (vs Green) but would not have had a prayer after the patch.
I honestly don't see any way of fixing that totally one sided battle. But I see no need to make the ID vs C8V battle equally as hopeless.
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Then why don't we try (more permanently) changing the sides up?
Place the Hydran more in line with permanently allying with the Klinks (as an example)
What do the Klinks have?
Their carriers are across the board worse than teh Feds/Kzin/or Hydran
Their fighters are across the board worse then Fed/Kzin/Hydran until 80- and then Hey! PFs are out
Oh and their PF's are worse than Fed and Kzin,
..actually I think I typed all this out before, and I don't want it to sound like a shot at DH or Dizzy,
(Whom I still need to fix the Lyran ships, so must be nice.. ;D )
So improve the Klink ships until they're within competitive distance of the Fed, and if there's a problem balancing Hydran ships against it
throw the Hydrans onto the Klingon permanent ally list.
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I don't see how that would be a solution, Hexx.
B/c now you got to balance the Hydrans and their poor (SFB vs SFC) drone defense to the Feds AND the Kzinti instead of just the Klinks.
It would, in the end, just cause more problems.
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This game is Rock-Paper-Scissors and we wlll never get an every class even accross all races. We are best off keeping the traditionall alliances (and not using ISC :) )
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What do the Klinks have?
Their carriers are across the board worse than teh Feds/Kzin/or Hydran
Absolutely not true
Their fighters are across the board worse then Fed/Kzin/Hydran until 80- and then Hey! PFs are out
Absolutely not true
Oh and their PF's are worse than Fed and Kzin,
Absolutely not true
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IIRC, are not Klink fighters the mirror image of the Kzinti fighters, they just come out a year or so later?
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They are slower but have a few more hp's.
Compare the Z-2 to the SAS and the Z-V to the HAAS. Same YFA's.
Z-Y and TAAS are identical.
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How about the KDR, KFR and K5RB
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Also if you would remove the "30"point penalty from when
the KFR was a ubber frigate to 5 because it is now a cl would be nice
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What do the Klinks have?
Their carriers are across the board worse than teh Feds/Kzin/or Hydran
Absolutely not true
Their fighters are across the board worse then Fed/Kzin/Hydran until 80- and then Hey! PFs are out
Absolutely not true
Oh and their PF's are worse than Fed and Kzin,
Absolutely not true
I think you're wrong (although I'll take out the Kzin) but obviously little point in continuing.
Have to do that "agree to disagree" thing ::)
I believe (for traditional alliances) you've got to Balance Feds/Klinks & Gorn/Roms
The ISC won't balance, and the other 3 really work on different ship/fleet tactics.
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Also if you would remove the "30"point penalty from when
the KFR was a ubber frigate to 5 because it is now a cl would be nice
What 30 point penalty?
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Well if you're going to make that assertion Hexx you have to back it up. Which carriers are you talking about? The C8VK has superior long range firepower to any of the other CVA's, and the D7V will mop the floor with a Fed CVS, which is never flown anyway because of its atrocious power curve.
The G1's have AMD, which is pretty huge in and of itself.
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I think you're wrong (although I'll take out the Kzin) but obviously little point in continuing.
Have to do that "agree to disagree" thing ::)
You really need to look over the stats before you say that the fighters and PF's are unbalanced.
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Well if you're going to make that assertion Hexx you have to back it up. Which carriers are you talking about? The C8VK has superior long range firepower to any of the other CVA's, and the D7V will mop the floor with a Fed CVS, which is never flown anyway because of its atrocious power curve.
The G1's have AMD, which is pretty huge in and of itself.
??
Yes I suppose if the Fed CVA doesn't lauch it's fighters it'd lose big time.. and I'd argue the CVA has the ability to proxy for "long range firepower"
And I feel like such a tool for missing the D7V -CVS matchup. Those Z-2's will carve their way through the F15's! And of course the Fed pilot will try and engage in a running sabre dance with the Klingo rather than castling.
Of course 1 year after the D7V comes out ,so does the Fed CVF...but heck 72 is the important year anyway..
And yes (seriously this time) The G1's have AMD, I can (honestly) see why you don't want huge numbers of AMD PF's zipping around.
But the Fed PF's match the G1's AMD, add an additional Ph3 for PD (or knowing the AI shooting at rng 15), match the drone racks, match teh Dis with a Photon and (most importantly) replace the Ph2's with Ph1's,.
Now there was someone (think he was a Klnk- don't remember his name) years ago who told me that I simply didn't understand Ph2's, and that is his hands they were every bit as good as Ph1's. really I'm of the belief there's a huge diffeernce though.
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I think you're wrong (although I'll take out the Kzin) but obviously little point in continuing.
Have to do that "agree to disagree" thing ::)
You really need to look over the stats before you say that the fighters and PF's are unbalanced.
Uhmm yes...silly me.. let's do that.. yes,yes, Feds and Klink PF'a pretty much match up across the board..
must check stats on the Ph2's vs Ph1's.. perhaps I've been wrong all these years ans they are actually better..
But maybe the fighters.. letsee F14 vs...Hey! he's right! The ZYB will totally kick that things ass!..oh wait there's a F14A..
Well maybe the ZV vs F18.. hmm F18 is faster, has more drones, can fire SPD 31 (32?) drones, has 2 Ph3s as opposed to 1
but oh look..teh ZV has 2 more dmg points..well that's got to be worth the spd, ability to fire spd 31 drones, and the doubling of phaser firepower..
Again- until 2280 the Feds have fighter superioity (though the 77 sees it narrowed considerably) and while the Fed F14s are sill superior after 80, both have so many drones they can easily eliminate the other.
And yes- before it's mentioned- Klink PF's are out a year earlier- but No, they don't match up to the Fed PF's.
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Anyway- back to the C8V thing
(admittedly dunno what's been done)
Why not 4xF racks for upgrades? 2 F racks seems a little weak, but (imo) 4 B racks is too many drones.
Even 4 A racks might be a better balancing idea.
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Um, because it has 6 dizzies, 10 Ph-1, and 2 more power than the CVA?
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Um, because it has 6 dizzies, 10 Ph-1, and 2 more power than the CVA?
??
I'll assume we're talking about the C8VK vs Fed CVAR - you confused me with the 2 more power remark sorry
(C8Vk has 58 power,F-CVAr has 54, 58-54=4)
And yes it does indeed have 6 Dizzies,and 10Ph1s.
Next we can point out that the Fed CVA has no disrupters...
Or we could say the Fed CVA is far more able to defend itself against drones and fighters than the C8V , especially since it doesn't even have to
worry about the C8Vs drones, it can concentrate on those super fighters the Klinks have that I can't seem to find listed.
The C8V is a good ship but -it needs drones- to compete with what (from SFB) it was designed to compete with- the Fed CVA
My *completely personal and I like to think objective opinion* is that 2 F racks are a little weak, but I also think 4 B racks are too much.
Kinda depends on how many Ph1s (and which arcs) you yank out. Or maybe rip off a couple of disrupters.
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Hexx, that's a load of p00p. Yes if you want to play suicide Klingon and charge the CVA then you do need more PD to survive. Obviously based on the ship design that's not going to be the tactic of choice.
So what if he castles? 4 phots and 6 ph1 are not going to compare to 6 dizzies and 10 ph1 which can fire every turn.
The Klink will be fine as long as he doesn't pretend he's a Hydran. Unless he's fighting a Hydran, then of course he'll win.
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The issue is the Fed has enough PD to shred the fighters and any drones they launch until it's own F14s have theri way with teh C8v
-I'm not advocating giving it racks and keeping it's phaser and disrupter suite, but it needs the drones.
BTW (while we're talking about super cheesy fighters)
Is there an actual set time from the time that the direct fire (ie your Fusion/hellbore) fighters drop
before they can fire or is it "as soon as" ? It seems to be immediately, but I'm curious if there's a set time?
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Who the hell flies a C8V?
Lets address the D6U and D5U eh?...they are superiour to which races carriers? I must have missed that somewhere.... :-\
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Who the hell flies a C8V?
Lets address the D6U and D5U eh?...they are superiour to which races carriers? I must have missed that somewhere.... :-\
Again talk to the guys at ADB (or whoever does it now)
Keep having the klinks build carriers to match teh Feds and Kzin and leaving the important bits off :P
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Who the hell flies a C8V?
Lets address the D6U and D5U eh?...they are superiour to which races carriers? I must have missed that somewhere.... :-\
Again talk to the guys at ADB (or whoever does it now)
Keep having the klinks build carriers to match teh Feds and Kzin and leaving the important bits off :P
Why would I blame ADB?...there ARE SFB klink carriers with AMD's and drone racks...they arent in the game....I'll have to dig through my SSD's again...
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Hellbore fighters launch hot, fusion fighters must wait 8 impulses.
Both will get absolutely pwnd by drone fighters of ANY variety. Against ZYB's or TADS in a 16 v 16 fight, you are looking at 12 drone fighters surviving.
So don't cry to me about F14's.
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Who the hell flies a C8V?
Lets address the D6U and D5U eh?...they are superiour to which races carriers? I must have missed that somewhere.... :-\
Again talk to the guys at ADB (or whoever does it now)
Keep having the klinks build carriers to match teh Feds and Kzin and leaving the important bits off :P
Why would I blame ADB?...there ARE SFB klink carriers with AMD's and drone racks...they arent in the game....I'll have to dig through my SSD's again...
Nope, I've got all the SSDs and the only one is the C7V. I still think they all should get 2 B-racks to make Scatterpacks, only reason they didn't on SGO6 was they were a last minute edition copied straight out of OP+
CVDs are still silly but Dizzy and I didn't think they were that bad with the current fleeting rules
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ANYWAY, the only valid test is combat. We can debate this sh*t in the foums until wew are blue in the face or we can fly some IP game with the modifications to see if this sutff actually works.
Whatchu guys doiung tuesday (or Monday is the weather is crappy)?
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Who the hell flies a C8V?
Lets address the D6U and D5U eh?...they are superiour to which races carriers? I must have missed that somewhere.... :-\
Again talk to the guys at ADB (or whoever does it now)
Keep having the klinks build carriers to match teh Feds and Kzin and leaving the important bits off :P
Why would I blame ADB?...there ARE SFB klink carriers with AMD's and drone racks...they arent in the game....I'll have to dig through my SSD's again...
I really must be playing with a differnt shiplist than everyone else (probably why I lose..) t00l says there Klingon "superfighters" somehwere
(or maybe that was Bear) and now there are hidden Klingon suoer CV's.. :P
B10V/B11V Both have AMD and drones
Auxilliary Carriers(freighters) have AMD
CVT (tug) Has drones and AMD
For actual combat ships
D6V has AMD(no drones) (I believe, can't find AM )
F5V's have AMD (no drones)
C8v has AMD (no drones)
D5u/D5V/D6u/D7V All have no AMD or drones on their SSDs
C7V is the only "combat" ship that has both.
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Hellbore fighters launch hot, fusion fighters must wait 8 impulses.
Both will get absolutely pwnd by drone fighters of ANY variety. Against ZYB's or TADS in a 16 v 16 fight, you are looking at 12 drone fighters surviving.
So don't cry to me about F14's.
No- I agree completely that the ZYb's will slaughter St's (although if the ST2s can get withing range of teh enemy ship it's pretty much over)
but I also think I've said this before- the ZYb is inferior to teh F14- but can still throw so many drones they'll kille each other.
I'm not-nor have I ever- advocated the Klink get a fighter to go toe to toe with the F14.
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ANYWAY, the only valid test is combat. We can debate this sh*t in the foums until wew are blue in the face or we can fly some IP game with the modifications to see if this sutff actually works.
Whatchu guys doiung tuesday (or Monday is the weather is crappy)?
Apparently flying Hydran CVA's against tool in a C8Vk?
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Tuesday is the GF's B-Day... so unless I want big trouble, I am out.
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No- I agree completely that the ZYb's will slaughter St's (although if the ST2s can get withing range of teh enemy ship it's pretty much over)
:rofl:
Unless there's even one ZYB left on the board, in which case all the nasty stingers will cruise right by the C8V (and all the extra drones you want to give it) to attack the fighter.
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No- I agree completely that the ZYb's will slaughter St's (although if the ST2s can get withing range of teh enemy ship it's pretty much over)
:rofl:
Unless there's even one ZYB left on the board, in which case all the nasty stingers will cruise right by the C8V (and all the extra drones you want to give it) to attack the fighter.
More than not, but there are times when the AI gets a brain.
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More than not, but there are times when the AI gets a brain.
And people wonder why I hate using fighters in PvP . . . ;D
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It does happen-
set up a H-IC loaded out with ST2mswhatevers vs D6U with ZYb's last night to see if tools dire predictions came true.
Both (!!!!) fighter groups flew past each other and fired on the ships. (destroying the D6u and crippling the IC)
Would be so nice if they'd do that all the time.
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It would be nice if "Attack" had some code to make them hold fire on everything except what they are attacking.
Oh well.
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As of Sunday (more edits will be made to this post as I make edits)
Federation:
- F-CS+: LYA changed to 7. Leave 1 year of overlap with the NCL
- F-DNH : DC set to 6. 1 AMD12 removed
- F-DNM: DC set to 6. 3 AMD6 Removed
- Federation PFs side and back shielding reduced
Klingon:
- K-C10K: Set back to “stock” for testing. DC stays at 12.
- K-C8VK 3 varients of the to test: Stock, 2 B-racks, 4 B-Racks. Honestly this need to be more balanced against the Federation and Kzinti as I think with the current AI interaction, the Hydrans are simply screwed unless we build them a DN that doesn't rely on fighters (which is a slippery slope that I do not want to walk . . . ).
- 2 B-racks added to small carriers.
- Check the YFA's for all ships- Klingon D5P/D6P/DWP all have YFA's of 14- should be 16 (when the K-INT is out)
Lyran:
- Lyran CC+ has YLA of 39, should be 11 (When the CCH is out)
- Fix Lyran CVD (fighters need to be L-Swift, not K-swift)
- Hexx will change the FYAs as I am utterly stumped.
Gorn:
- Redundant CVP removed
- Shuttle launch rate on carriers corrected
Hydran:
- H-REG removed (h variant comes out the same year)
- H-REG+ (2 more Gats) added FOR TESTING ONLY SO NOBODY FLIP OUT!!!!!
Romulan:
- R-FFH-Kf, R-RHKf, R-NHKf added
- R-KFRf, R-KDRf, R-K5RLf
Kzinti:
- Z-BF: FYA changed to 2268. DC was already 6. Phaser arcs changed so less fire backwards.
- Z-DNH Power set back to stock for Testing
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Also if you would remove the "30"point penalty from when
the KFR was a ubber frigate to 5 because it is now a cl would be nice
What does this mean? the BPV Balance on this ship is "-4" Current BPV is 120 which though looks a bit high doesn't seem too out of whack.
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How about the KDR, KFR and K5RB
KDR become the KDP (a taldren invention) with 4 PFs but I guess adding one with 2 is okay,
KFRf
KDRf
K5RLf added.
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thanks and you are right it is -4 now sorry for not checking first
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The balance column is an internal Taldren thing. It's the fudge factor they use to get from the BPV of the added systems to the SFB BPV.
Basically it means nothing.
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The balance column is an internal Taldren thing. It's the fudge factor they use to get from the BPV of the added systems to the SFB BPV.
Basically it means nothing.
It means everything. Before a campaign starts, the admin can go thru this feature and change it to adjust the Ai draws. Fudging bpv changes ship replacement, shipyard cost although only marginally and changes AI draws quite a bit. A lot of ships need to be fudged when ship loss isnt drastic. And some ships face too hard AI for their bpv and need be adjusted accordingly. Course this can also be done on the server side mid server.
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Anyone else at all disturbed by Dizzy posting at 7:30 in the morning on a holiday? ;D
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Anyone else at all disturbed by Dizzy posting at 7:30 in the morning on a holiday? ;D
Hahaha. Havent gone to sleep yet...
Sugggestion for the FDNH posted in your D2 DNL thread. Your compromise is more generous than my idea with 6 G racks and 2 ADD12 , but I propose players having a choice of DN G rack configuration based on which front they operate on, Romulan or Klingon, and have a variant best suited for each. For example, on the Rom front, ADD would be used less often that Drones, so that variant would offer 6 G racks and 3 ADD6. On the Klink front, ADD is more important than a drone load, so that variant would have 6 F racks and 3 ADD12.
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Observations from tonight's "testing":
- C10K (un-modded except for the 12 Drone control) though out-matched in a 1v1 against the F-DNH (2 AMD, 6 Drone Control version), is more than capable in 2v2. K-C10Kf, K-DWLf was able to beat the F-DNHf, F-CBf combination. Mores testing is needed and to be honest, testing dreads 1v1 is just stupid as they never fly alone anymore.
- Hydrans are just screwed after 2280. ;D Casual PF Tenders screw them because the fighters are utterly retarted. I don't know what can be done about this as it is a game programing issue.
The non-Feds think I'm a race-whore, the Feds think I'm a sell-out. All-in-all it must be balanced. ;D
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Klingon:
- 2 B-racks added to small carriers.
THANK YOU!
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That needs to be tested.
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Kzinti:
- Z-BF: FYA changed to 2268. DC was already 6. Phaser arcs changed so less fire backwards.
Doesn't seem too bad althought I'd make it 2267 at latest, this is the same as the Fed CF, not sure the Lyran CF should come out as early as 2265 considering the change. Perhaps one year earlier than the Kzin one, the three year gap would IMHO be a bit too much. The Lyan and Kzin fast cruisers are a competitive match, especially if you have less phasers firing to the rear on the Kzin. I see no real problem with setting back the FYA of the Kzin boat, likely a good idea to give more early era play for the CC matchups, but i think once the traditional adversary's fast cruiser comes out the Kzin one should follow shortly.
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That needs to be tested.
Whatchu doing tonight after 9 PM Eastern?
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The more I see it, I think all the 'f' versions (ie causual pf tenders) need to have at least 2 extra DC, possibly 4 for the extra racks given by the pf's.
And DH is right, 1v1 the C10K pretty much gets pwn3d by the DNH.... it was pretty much the opposite in a 2v2
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The more I see it, I think all the 'f' versions (ie causual pf tenders) need to have at least 2 extra DC, possibly 4 for the extra racks given by the pf's.
And DH is right, 1v1 the C10K pretty much gets pwn3d by the DNH.... it was pretty much the opposite in a 2v2
We need to test this a few more time as much as it pains me to see a DNH go up in smoke >:( I would like to try a few more combinations, maybe do combined arms with tradiional racial allies.
Not sure about the DC for mech links.
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That needs to be tested.
Whatchu doing tonight after 9 PM Eastern?
Sandbagging so you remove those. ;D
I think we need to do all of these dread tests as combined arms. Finding the right combo can pretty much remove any potential weakness.
The REG was pretty good with a couple of Kzin or Gorn on its wing.
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Sandbagging so you remove those. ;D
That or the Cutty Sark explained you flying tonight :)
Hexx has a pretty good idea for the Hydran Dreads that doens't involve me doing something stupid like putting on more Gats, we can try that tommorow night.
Phaser 3 fighters a bust?
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BTW Thanks to all you guys for playtesting stuff. Everyone will pretty much bitch at the determinations that are made either way, but know that some do greatly appreciate your efforts. :thumbsup:
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BTW Thanks to all you guys for playtesting stuff. Everyone will pretty much bitch at the determinations that are made either way, but know that some do greatly appreciate your efforts. :thumbsup:
You make it sound like blowing up t00l is work ;D
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He did manage to HET in a H-ID last night though....
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Testing is kinda fun
I got Risky killed, I got Bear killed.
Woulda had t00l killed but he SD first. (wuss)
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oh and dont forget, you killed me outright
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Testing is kinda fun
I got Risky killed, I got Bear killed.
Woulda had t00l killed but he SD first. (wuss)
I SOOO need to get my mic situation fixed....
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I'm game for some more tonight after 9 PM Eastern time. I'll be on D.net TS and I want to try Hexx's idea for the Hydran Dreads.
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BTW Thanks to all you guys for playtesting stuff. Everyone will pretty much bitch at the determinations that are made either way, but know that some do greatly appreciate your efforts. :thumbsup:
You make it sound like blowing up t00l is work ;D
Most things done in mindless repetition are considered work. ;) ;D :P
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Speaking of Mindless repetition, we've got some more Hydran Klingon to test tonight. Both t00l and Hexx had some ideas, look for me on TS after 8 PM
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If I can drag myself away from the Dophins-Steelers game tonight... sure....
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Interesting results from last night, we might be on to something for making late-era cheese fghts a little less silly regarding PFs.
We'll need more testers to see how things behave is fleet actions, look for me online tonight as I think I'm staying in.
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MB some details?
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MB some details?
We cut PF shielding in half for all races EXCEPT the Lyrans. I've ripped out every spare internal I can without breaking the game engine, this is the only way to make them more Brittle
12 fighters on the Regent (Hexx's idea). t00l proposes changing the FYA of the Regent to 2278 so it at least has 2 years before it is obscelete.
Last night was the first time in ANY of the tests that a REGh beat a C10Kf in a 1v1. It was me versus risky and I was fried at the end with power in the teens. We both made stupid mistakes that kind of evened out.
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We cut PF shielding in half for all races EXCEPT the Lyrans. I've ripped out every spare internal I can without breaking the game engine, this is the only way to make them more Brittle
This will negatively impact the combat ability of PF Tender ships and PF Squadrons... Why were PF's stripped bare?
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We cut PF shielding in half for all races EXCEPT the Lyrans. I've ripped out every spare internal I can without breaking the game engine, this is the only way to make them more Brittle
This will negatively impact the combat ability of PF Tender ships and PF Squadrons... Why were PF's stripped bare?
The PF internals were stripped 3 servers ago :P The hull and stuff was stripped to make up for the extra insternals added by giving the PFs full power as if they had WBPs.
yes, it will negatively impact the affect of PFs and tenders. But is this a bad thing? think about it.
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What I'm thinking about after seeing what you've done is having a variant of the standard PF that carries a PF. That way a Tender can carry a 4+2 package, their Leader, their special and the 2 standard variants that themselves have 2 for a total of 6. That puts them a bit more on par with their ftr carrier cousins. Since we are classing Tenders with 4 very stripped PF's as carriers, they ought be carriers in that sense of the word...
I wonder what would happen if we added 2 columns to the shiplist and had 6 ftr bays...
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What I'm thinking about after seeing what you've done is having a variant of the standard PF that carries a PF. That way a Tender can carry a 4+2 package, their Leader, their special and the 2 standard variants that themselves have 2 for a total of 6. That puts them a bit more on par with their ftr carrier cousins. Since we are classing Tenders with 4 very stripped PF's as carriers, they ought be carriers in that sense of the word...
Playtest as is. Think about it, the abundance of PFs is a big part of what makes post-2280 a little stupid. Making them a bit more fragile plays right. In SFB, PFs were very fragile. Any engine hit when the packs were running (which would be all the time) cause an additional 1-6 points of damage. We cannot replacite this in the game so the weakening of the sheild helps make PFs play with the correct amount of Mojo.
This also alows the Lyran PFs not to suck ;D
I wonder what would happen if we added 2 columns to the shiplist and had 6 ftr bays...
EDIT: Doesn't work :(
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what about modifying the number of PFs in a slot? shove 2 into each of the "standard pf slots", or does the game engine cry bloody mary
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what about modifying the number of PFs in a slot? shove 2 into each of the "standard pf slots", or does the game engine cry bloody mary
Doesn't work
you CAN put 2 standard PF on a PF leader. I do not think this is a good idea though.
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Plus we're not going to full PF flotillas if we're not going to full carriers.
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Plus we're not going to full PF flotillas if we're not going to full carriers.
Well, we COULD do that. Maybe in combination with PBR style fleeting it wouldn't be that bad. If Carriers can only be escorted by Escorts they have a severe lack of longe range firepower.
Just thoughts to ponder . . . .
PS. If full carrier complimetns are used, the CVP/CVD ships gotta go unless they are considered Heavy metal.
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Plus we're not going to full PF flotillas if we're not going to full carriers.
Well, we COULD do that. Maybe in combination with PBR style fleeting it wouldn't be that bad. If Carriers can only be escorted by Escorts they have a severe lack of longe range firepower.
Just thoughts to ponder . . . .
PS. If full carrier complimetns are used, the CVP/CVD ships gotta go unless they are considered Heavy metal.
CVD's would definitely be metal.. (kinda to CVA's what BCHs are to DNs?) CVP's could probably either fit on the very end of the metal or be removed.
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Problem is for Hydrans then... IC is supposed to have 40 fighters.... there is no way we can create that unless some how the max ftr squad is moved up from 6 to 10....
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Yes it will screw the Hydran IC.
And the Fed SCS.
Probably a few other ships as well.
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Problem is for Hydrans then... IC is supposed to have 40 fighters.... there is no way we can create that unless some how the max ftr squad is moved up from 6 to 10....
I have a workarounf for this, might need a custom ship model.
Make a fifght ONLY for the IC called the "Double Stinger" ;D
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Actually that's not a bad idea...
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Problem is for Hydrans then... IC is supposed to have 40 fighters.... there is no way we can create that unless some how the max ftr squad is moved up from 6 to 10....
I have a workarounf for this, might need a custom ship model.
Make a fifght ONLY for the IC called the "Double Stinger" ;D
[/quote
darn i knew i shoulda posted this last night....problem is it becomes twice as hard to kill the squadron(which may not be bad considering fighter/pf interaction) because it will have twice the HP and will be harder to eliminate a whole squad before it gets recalled
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darn i knew i shoulda posted this last night....problem is it becomes twice as hard to kill the squadron(which may not be bad considering fighter/pf interaction) because it will have twice the HP and will be harder to eliminate a whole squad before it gets recalled
But Deck crews will be DRASTICLY reduced so that killing a few will count for something.
In all seriosness, anyone want to try this? I think IF Carrier/Escort restrictions are in effect (Carriers MUST fleet with escorts) I don't think this would be that horrible.
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So few people fly carriers anyway I don't think it would be an issue.
All you'll (maybe) have is a few extra people decide that carriers are cool, buy them,
realize how stupid fighters are and go back to their droneboats.
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I dont think peeps are gonna wanna fly a carrier with just escorts. Nah. I wouldnt.
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LOL.... H-IC with what? 20 'Double Stingers', a H-MKE, & H-DE for a total of 20 double Stingers and 10 regular fighters...
Interesting...
Or will we go with the one escort & one line ship?
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Problem is for Hydrans then... IC is supposed to have 40 fighters.... there is no way we can create that unless some how the max ftr squad is moved up from 6 to 10....
I have a workarounf for this, might need a custom ship model.
Make a fifght ONLY for the IC called the "Double Stinger" ;D
I'm thinking this is a bda idea.. but what exactly are you proposing to do?
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:huh:
Explain again why we want MORE attrition units???
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So you can scream more when all the fighters don't do what you want them to do....
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So you can scream more when all the fighters don't do what you want them to do....
instead of just 2/3rds
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:huh:
Explain again why we want MORE attrition units???
I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, I did the FiCons just to make sure they'd work :)
Fleeting is the best way to go to control chese. If you MUST fly a carrier group if you want a carrier, this may not be that bad.
Race mixing gets interesting . . .
so, what wants to try this with some legal combos? :)
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Problem is for Hydrans then... IC is supposed to have 40 fighters.... there is no way we can create that unless some how the max ftr squad is moved up from 6 to 10....
I have a workarounf for this, might need a custom ship model.
Make a fifght ONLY for the IC called the "Double Stinger" ;D
I'm thinking this is a bda idea.. but what exactly are you proposing to do?
20 Double Stinger fighters. take a stinger, Double the hit points and weapons. Draticly decrease deck crews so killing them counts, fighters can ONLY be used on the Iron Chancellor
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I dont think peeps are gonna wanna fly a carrier with just escorts. Nah. I wouldnt.
This balance the BCV/BCS/CVA's compare to non-carriers with one simple rule.
I want to play-test this
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PS. With Fleeting, REAL Space Control Ships are possible if this is desired . . .
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I'm up for this sort of testing, not saying I'll be able to participate, but in theory, we calling these double fighters or heavy ftrs or what?
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2-ship stinger elements
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I'm up for this sort of testing, not saying I'll be able to participate, but in theory, we calling these double fighters or heavy ftrs or what?
THis is an idea literlay pulled out of my ass with very little thought. We'll call the "Double fighters for now"
I only gave the IC enough deck crews to regen a total of 5 fighters.
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Remember double ftr bug anyone? Now it's a feature! ;D
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Remember double ftr bug anyone? Now it's a feature! ;D
We're testing the maximum stupidity now . . ..
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Fast cruisers rot your brain!
<snicker>
(http://www.xenocorp.net/762/D5Dpractice.jpg)
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Fast cruisers rot your brain!
<snicker>
([url]http://www.xenocorp.net/762/D5Dpractice.jpg[/url])
I really hate you t00l. That does it, the B-racks are staying on the Klingon carriers :P
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Other than t00l cheating with that obviously doctored photos, tonights test were interesrting yet inconclucive. We need to test some carrier/escort combos so we're gonna need at least 4 people. I should be avaialable tommorow after 9 PM
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If you don't mind having a n00b, I've got all day tommorow off.
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Said before the game:
t00l: "You know if I beat you with a D5D I'm posting a screenshot."
DH: "If you beat me with a D5D you SHOULD post a screenshot!"
:rofl:
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Said before the game:
t00l: "You know if I beat you with a D5D I'm posting a screenshot."
DH: "If you beat me with a D5D you SHOULD post a screenshot!"
:rofl:
Lyran PFs with Phaser 1s, check!
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If you don't mind having a n00b, I've got all day tommorow off.
I'll be there with my candy truck...
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Said before the game:
t00l: "You know if I beat you with a D5D I'm posting a screenshot."
DH: "If you beat me with a D5D you SHOULD post a screenshot!"
:rofl:
Lyran PFs with Phaser 1s, check!
Such ingratitude after I point out the flaws in your drone defense!
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One thing we will absolutely need for the 'double' fighters is a different fighter model so peeps don't scream too loudly....
Maybe pink Hydran fighters?
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So I'm to understand that Lyrans can't have Ph1's on their PF's because t00l doesn't like it, but the biggest
concern about Hydran 2xfighters is their colour?
Kinda odd...
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Um... Lyran PF's in SFB had ph2's correct?
Why should they have ph1's then?
The fighter comment is just a play on Kroma's pink gr0n fleet.....
But something should be done to distingush regular fighters from 'double' fighters...
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Um... Lyran PF's in SFB had ph2's correct?
Why should they have ph1's then?
Um Fed's didn't have PF's in SFB correct?
Hydran Stingers had 10 hit points in SFB correct?
Hydran Stingers had FA HW in SFB correct?
Need I go on? :P
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Um... the Fed PF's are conjectural.
The stats that were provided are used. Just like the stats for the R-KCR were provided and used...
As for any fighter's HP's and HW mounts, they were changed to reflect the inconsistent behavior of fighters in SFC.
Gotta love having your fighters walk up to the enemy and do.... NOTHING.... until that flight of 4 is whittled down to one measly fighter....
So please, feel free to go on...
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As for any fighter's HP's and HW mounts, they were changed to reflect the inconsistent behavior of fighters in SFC.
Gotta love having your fighters walk up to the enemy and do.... NOTHING.... until that flight of 4 is whittled down to one measly fighter....
So please, feel free to go on...
Yet Hydran fighter's were changed to wider arcs (everyone else went FH, Hydran went FX) and Hydrans (again alone) gained extra hits..
I'm not saying it doesn't help out the balance issue, but I fail to see why it's Ok yet upgrading 2Ph2's toPh1's on Lyran PF's would somehow unbalance the whole system.
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You are already getting a free PF upgrade, since everyone else's are getting downgraded.
The 2 hp's on Stingers is so they are not the total bitch of drone fighters. In SFB it was completely the opposite, because they had chaff, didn't waste their gatlings on range 14 shots, and had a DFR of 4.
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You are already getting a free PF upgrade, since everyone else's are getting downgraded.
The 2 hp's on Stingers is so they are not the total bitch of drone fighters. In SFB it was completely the opposite, because they had chaff, didn't waste their gatlings on range 14 shots, and had a DFR of 4.
And just how many drone fighters do you usually encounter on the average server?
Because it seems to me that if it takes 8 extra hits to kill a squad of 4 fighters, thats a few extra PH1 hits above and beyond
what they should have to do in order for a Lyran ship to eliminate a group. Seeing as how pretty much every Hydran ship carries the fighters
you're OK with disadvantaging arguably 90% (number completely pulled out of my ass) of the Lyran/Hydran fights, as well as any Klingon/ Hydran
fight that doesn't involve drone fighters.
And SFB doesn't hugely apply. as I've been told that (apparently) Lyran PF's work great in that game because you can concentrate
the disrupter fire (?). And of course those ph2's are also often fired at excessive range.
Hexx the righteous.
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Chiil on this guys, the "Double fighter" still needs to got through a lot of tested before this will be allowed. last night's test it seemed a bit much, we need to test it in a "legal" fleet before any information decision can be made.
See in comabt this evening.
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You are already getting a free PF upgrade, since everyone else's are getting downgraded.
The 2 hp's on Stingers is so they are not the total bitch of drone fighters. In SFB it was completely the opposite, because they had chaff, didn't waste their gatlings on range 14 shots, and had a DFR of 4.
And just how many drone fighters do you usually encounter on the average server?
Because it seems to me that if it takes 8 extra hits to kill a squad of 4 fighters, thats a few extra PH1 hits above and beyond
what they should have to do in order for a Lyran ship to eliminate a group. Seeing as how pretty much every Hydran ship carries the fighters
you're OK with disadvantaging arguably 90% (number completely pulled out of my ass) of the Lyran/Hydran fights, as well as any Klingon/ Hydran
fight that doesn't involve drone fighters.
And SFB doesn't hugely apply. as I've been told that (apparently) Lyran PF's work great in that game because you can concentrate
the disrupter fire (?). And of course those ph2's are also often fired at excessive range.
Hexx the righteous race whore.
Ah, but you are perfectly fine with being able to destroy an entire fighter group with no risk to yourself since they normally fire their phG's at range 14 and usually don't fire the fusions until the second pass....
Yeah, sounds like you are wildly disadvantaged against most Hydran ships... ::)
And DH is right, this is play testing still.
Nothing has been set in stone.
Not to mention that t00l has only ever let one IC ever be purchased on a server (I talked him into getting it and giving it to DM6) and it was destroyed rather quickl. IIRC, it was a Lyran ship that killed him too)
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I want to go on the record now saying I think the IC is a bit much wiht the equilvelant of 40 fighters but I imagin this would be just as evil in SFB if not worse. On a Metal system, this might need to cost MORE than a CVA.
I have no opbjection to TRYING Lyran PFs with Phaser 1s. If I have time for tonights edits I will do that as well
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It might be if the fighters listened well... problem is... they don't... and with bigger maps... cornering someone really isn't an option anymore.
As for making the cost more than a CVA... It has no heavy weapons... it has ok PD with 8 phasers and 2 phG's.
But it is the 2nd highest BPV of all the CVA's. And they will have HW mounts with 24 fighters.
Federation DN F-CVA+ DREADNOUGHT 219
Hydran DN H-IC+ DREADNOUGHT 288
Hydran DN H-ID DREADNOUGHT 237
ISC DN I-CVAZ DREADNOUGHT 289
Klingon DN K-C8V DREADNOUGHT 274
Klingon DN K-C8VK1 DREADNOUGHT 260
Klingon DN K-C8VK2 DREADNOUGHT 261
Klingon DN K-C8VK3 DREADNOUGHT 267
Mirak DN Z-CVA DREADNOUGHT 243
Mirak DN Z-CVAm DREADNOUGHT 263
Mirak DN Z-CVAR DREADNOUGHT 252
Mirak DN Z-CVARm DREADNOUGHT 272
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You are already getting a free PF upgrade, since everyone else's are getting downgraded.
The 2 hp's on Stingers is so they are not the total bitch of drone fighters. In SFB it was completely the opposite, because they had chaff, didn't waste their gatlings on range 14 shots, and had a DFR of 4.
And just how many drone fighters do you usually encounter on the average server?
Plenty, and many of them Lyran.
When a Lyran CVD can kill an ID without breaking a sweat you know something is broken.
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Lyran PF should have Ph1's. They will still suck balls.
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Um... yeah, right...
By that comment, I can tell you haven't piloted a Hydran against any Lyrans with PF's.....
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are we gonna use the warp scripts tonight?
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are we gonna use the warp scripts tonight?
The Large map is fine for testing.
No changes to the list from last night, head hurts, need some drugs.
http://69.125.26.106:9000/images/SGO62_9-12-2006.zip
I'll be on around 9 PM
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Um... yeah, right...
By that comment, I can tell you haven't piloted a Hydran against any Lyrans with PF's.....
Ya, running from Ph1 armed PF's isnt fun. But consider range 30 Proxies from Fed PF's. Oh wait, you're allied to the Feds, so nm. ::)
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Tonight was fun yet in conclusive as we never got enough guys to do 2v2 or 3v3 (biatches!! Is "Blade: the Series" that compelling?). It all seems like Hexx and my ideas for fleeting will work but we gotta test it.
Idea for Lyran Escorts: Replace the Phaser 2s with 2 PH-3 each. Comments please.
Since escorts can only Fly with Carriers, is the G-rack nerfing still needed? I'm thinking maybe, need other opinions.
Here is what we are thinking for Carrier CnC:
2-Ship Fleet: Carriers MUST be escorted by an Escort of that same race
3-Ship Fleet: First wing MUST be and Escort of the same race, second wing can be either and Escort of an allied races, and Escort of the same race, or a LINE (non-command) ship of the same races
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Sorry, someone unexpectedly came over tonight... :(
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Um... yeah, right...
By that comment, I can tell you haven't piloted a Hydran against any Lyrans with PF's.....
Ya, running from Ph1 armed PF's isnt fun. But consider range 30 Proxies from Fed PF's. Oh wait, you're allied to the Feds, so nm. ::)
You got a problem with them, the guy to talk to is DH. Maybe we should put a Fusion cannon on board instead of the Photons....
DH, how did the 2 ph3's work? Or did you not have time to test them tonight?
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Oh, and Dizzy, your deflecting the comment from Lyran vs Hydran to Fed's vs Lyran doesn't address the point that Lyran PF's usually pwn hydran fighters.
When a BCH (L-BCHT) can regularly pwn a CVA (H-ID), something is wrong.
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Since escorts can only Fly with Carriers, is the G-rack nerfing still needed? I'm thinking maybe, need other opinions.
Here is what we are thinking for Carrier CnC:
2-Ship Fleet: Carriers MUST be escorted by an Escort of that same race
3-Ship Fleet: First wing MUST be and Escort of the same race, second wing can be either and Escort of an allied races, and Escort of the same race, or a LINE (non-command) ship of the same races
*sigh* Bet you are tired of hearing this... but if you move back to G racks, the Hydrans are flucked against droners... not so much with the droners vs droners...
I like the carrier escort rules as you described above...
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If (and only if) escorts are restricted to flying only with the carriers then I'd think the G racks can be restored.
Depending (of course) on what fleeting restrictions are placed on DN's.
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It's getting too restrictive guys. I think the fun of it all is being sucked away. I'd do a poll on what others think of how u cant fly this or that. You already know how I'd vote. Not saying your ideas arnt good, I'm willing to try it, but doing it for a serious server, nah.
When a BCH (L-BCHT) can regularly pwn a CVA (H-ID), something is wrong.
Bear, where are you getting your pissing contest ideas? What makes you think the ID should take down a BCHT? I'd really like to know.
I dont think you know how to utilize the ID. It's a good ship for use in certain situations, not as a big ship whipping stick. The ID isnt the best one on one PvP DN and isnt supposed to be used as such. I bet it'd get pwnd by other BCHT's too, mb even some BCV's. I think the C7T could take it down regularly as well. I'd be willing to demonstrate.
There is nothing wrong with it and everything wrong with your ideas of how it's matched up. You are comparing apples and oranges and that is never a good way to balance things. Basing the presmise that a ship can regularly own another by the basis of one on one matchups with a mismatched set of ships with totally different mission goals is just dumb.
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Since escorts can only Fly with Carriers, is the G-rack nerfing still needed? I'm thinking maybe, need other opinions.
Here is what we are thinking for Carrier CnC:
2-Ship Fleet: Carriers MUST be escorted by an Escort of that same race
3-Ship Fleet: First wing MUST be and Escort of the same race, second wing can be either and Escort of an allied races, and Escort of the same race, or a LINE (non-command) ship of the same races
*sigh* Bet you are tired of hearing this... but if you move back to G racks, the Hydrans are flucked against droners... not so much with the droners vs droners...
I like the carrier escort rules as you described above...
Your point is very valid and you are probrably right. Now show up tonight to test this stuff in fleets :P
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It's getting too restrictive guys. I think the fun of it all is being sucked away. I'd do a poll on what others think of how u cant fly this or that. You already know how I'd vote. Not saying your ideas arnt good, I'm willing to try it, but doing it for a serious server, nah.
??
Don't really think it's getting to restrictive, as all that has been suggested deals with carriers (which no one really flies) and escorts (again which no one really flies)
~ Not saying we won't go to far eventually, but claiming this is "too restrictive" is as dumb as t00ls suggestions that every other fight Hydrans are in involves waves of drone fighters
used against them.
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The L-BCHT does NOT pwn the H-ID with the SGO mod. That was on SS2 with OP+ and no fighter/PF CnC. I'd find it very hard to believe a BCHT with 6 PF can beat an H-ID with 24 fighters.
Please keep your arguements relevant to the modern setup.
The new Overmind should be a more than Capable BCV so the Hydran have little to complain about in this ship-class
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It's getting too restrictive guys. I think the fun of it all is being sucked away. I'd do a poll on what others think of how u cant fly this or that. You already know how I'd vote. Not saying your ideas arnt good, I'm willing to try it, but doing it for a serious server, nah.
When a BCH (L-BCHT) can regularly pwn a CVA (H-ID), something is wrong.
Bear, where are you getting your pissing contest ideas? What makes you think the ID should take down a BCHT? I'd really like to know.
I dont think you know how to utilize the ID. It's a good ship for use in certain situations, not as a big ship whipping stick. The ID isnt the best one on one PvP DN and isnt supposed to be used as such. I bet it'd get pwnd by other BCHT's too, mb even some BCV's. I think the C7T could take it down regularly as well. I'd be willing to demonstrate.
There is nothing wrong with it and everything wrong with your ideas of how it's matched up. You are comparing apples and oranges and that is never a good way to balance things. Basing the presmise that a ship can regularly own another by the basis of one on one matchups with a mismatched set of ships with totally different mission goals is just dumb.
Oh, that is right... I forgot you are the master... ::)
The only thing you are right about is that it is APPLES and ORANGES. DN sized CVA's should not be getting beat by BC sized ships even if they are PF tenders.
Yet this has happened regularly on the Dynaverse. Why?
Mainly the fighter/pf AI interaction, but we also have the problem of fighters not firing HW's (this happens with both Hydran & droner fighters).
This leaves an undergunned DN vs an overgunned BCH.
DH is correct that things are better now (except for the damnable fighter AI), but you want to give the Lyran PF's MORE firepower to upset the balance again?
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Ya, Lyran PF's suck and need that Ph1.
It has 56 power? It's a slow ugly ship totally dependent on it's fighters. BCHT's would eat it alive in a fast run and gun game where the power starved ID cant keep up.
Oops, wait it has 58 power. That aint that bad. Hrmmm, You should have plenty of time to shoot up the back shield of the Lyran b4 u run outtta fighters. I reassessed my matchup and must say that the ID has the edge. I'll be happy to demonstrate and Ph1's wouldnt matter one way or the other. The main problem with the LBCHT vs ID matchup isnt the ftr or PF's, its the insane powercurve on the Lyr BC. It lets it get away with murder.
And DH, I like the idea of giving the Lyran escorts 2x Ph3's for each Ph2 due to how the game will fire the Ph2 offensively leaving it with no PD. It's also gain a tad bit of power conservation too. I like it.
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Oops, wait it has 58 power. That aint that bad. Hrmmm, You should have plenty of time to shoot up the back shield of the Lyran b4 u run outtta fighters. I reassessed my matchup and must say that the ID has the edge. I'll be happy to demonstrate and Ph1's wouldnt matter one way or the other. The main problem with the LBCHT vs ID matchup isnt the ftr or PF's, its the insane powercurve on the Lyr BC. It lets it get away with murder.
I think the H-OM with 12 Fighters and 6 Heavies Should be able to Handle an L-BCHT with 6 PFs.
Question about Full PF-tenders, should they be considered CARRIERS for the purpose of the Escort rule? I don't see and L-BCHT being so dominating if it is forced to with with an L-CWEF.
Hexx is right, fleeting rules are the holy-grail ;D
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OF COURSE full tenders have to be considered true carriers. Esp if you are going to give them 6 PF's.
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As much as it pains me I agree with the tool.
Full tenders should be considered carriers.
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OF COURSE full tenders have to be considered true carriers. Esp if you are going to give them 6 PF's.
What was the actual SFB/F&E rule?
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We actually had 4 show up tonight!!!!!!! ;D
F-BCV/F-NAC (me and Risky) versus K-C7V/K-AD5 (Dax and Lepton) = Victorous Feds, can go either was, but didn't seem too off.
F-BCV/F-NAC (Risky and Lepton) versus K-C7f/K-DWLf (Me and Dax) = Victorious Klinks. I did not feel out-gunned at all in the Klink Squad. Still seems like it could go either way.
Didn't get trhough too much, but it was a nice start :)
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OF COURSE full tenders have to be considered true carriers. Esp if you are going to give them 6 PF's.
What was the actual SFB/F&E rule?
F&E rule was that tenders could go solo, but this made them PRIME targets for directed damage. You can't get a cheap kill on a carrier like you can on a PFT.
Needless to say that whole concept is lost in translation.
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you CAN put 2 standard PF on a PF leader. I do not think this is a good idea though.
Greetings DieHard et. al. -
Been trying to follow this thread, though, i've been remiss on the last several days of posts. Also sorry i haven't involved myself in playtesting, you Guys are all balancing KINGS - honestly, I don't have enough of a frame of reference nor expertise (SFB/F&E) to offer any real quality input.
I'm interested in these solutions/workarounds you've accomplished for increasing Pf's and fighters. Particularly Pf's that carry a Pf? - You mention that a PF Leader can carry 2 standard PF's - I'm assuming this is a convention you're creating "artificially" to achieve the balancing you seek. Is there any real limit here? i.e. couldn't you put 4 pf's on a PF (if you wanted to create a really stinky slice of stilton ). And then, in theory have a max of 16 pfs'? on a full tender?
Also - the solutions for giving the equiv. of 40 fighters is to merely "double" the strength/damage of a standard fighter, i.e. there actually is NO WAY to increase the REAL squad size ?? (you'll only ever have 6 little models/squadron in game)
I really appreciate the depth and breadth of consideration you guys bring to the issues you tackle. I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to play SFB back in the day with y'all (i used to like little lead figures;)
Also - so as to round out my noob stance could someone clarify the terms/acronyms for me?:
PBR
attrition units
directed damage
Cheers and a hearty <S> to Y'all
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PBR
attrition units
directed damage
Patrol Battle Rules
Attrition units are fighters and pf's.
Directed Damage is something from Federation & Empires. Best let t00l describe that one.
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~ You could (in theory) I believe have 4 PF's that each carry 4 PF's that each carry 4PF's etc etc.
Full tenders (SFB wise) carried 6 PF's (a full squadron) so that's what we use.
~ There is no way to increase squadron size for fighters beyond 6. (That I'm aware of) It's hardcoded into the game iirc.
Even at 6 there's issues with how they behave. (the basic one being all 6 fighters do not fire)
~PBR is Patrol Battle Rules, some system ADB (I believe) came up with to "balance" randomnly created scenarios
so people weren't using 3 Command cruisers etc.
~Attrition units are units that are used through attrition ( :P ) Basically it's from a SFB use where the fighters and PF's were far easier to build/crew than new ships would be. 6 PFs were (more or less) a match for a small ship. And could be produced and crrewed for a fraction of the cost. The concept itself doesn't apply to our games, but the term refers to the aforementioned fighters and/or PF's.
~Directed damage is a F&E term basically (as I understand it) has one fleet use it's abstracted firepower to shoot at one ship in anotehr fleet rather than just firing. Has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to OP.
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Bartok, I created a base once that dropped two Fighterbays... I used modded FRD's for that. Inside FRD 1, there were 16 ftrs. Insider FRD2 there were 4 PF's. Since each ship can carry 4 FRD Ftr bays, I could have any combination, really. 12 PF's and 16 ftrs... 4 PF's and 48 ftrs, or half and half. The FRD's themselves can carry 4 more FRD's but that many units in the game can crash the game engine. And the lag is horrible.
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Wow Guys - Bearslayer, Hexx - Dizzy
ThanX for all your responses - Dizz, sorry i'm acronym challenged FRD?
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FRD= Fleet Repair Dock ;)
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If it's decided to go appropriate carrier escorts for carrier fleets (and escorts can only run while escorting...)
Per SFB, the escorts are designed with small "fighter bays", in order to assist the main carrier in "servicing" the fighters. Perhaps, for SFC, if we took and made these full "fighter bays", complete with a fighter compliment, we can get the 40+ fighters for the ID/IC (4x4 on Iron, 3x4 (additional 1x4 if hydran escorts are also allocated fighters) on 2 wingmen = 16 + 12 +12 = 40), 24 packs for the CVAs, etc., by putting the excess fighters on the escorts:
F-CVA group: CVA gets 16. NEA gets 2 x 2 or 1 x 4 (20 in fleet), DEA same. 24 fighters. CVA carries 3x flights F14, rest of fighters the A10 model.
While this does make solo escorts a bit more powerful, hopefully they won't be abused (through a proper rule... ;)) and it gives full SFB squadrons. To be "fair" to the PF races, they want a 6 pk of PFs on the table, they need a casual tender to "escort" the true PF tender... (or play a true Rommie Chickenhawk squad :o)
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While this does make solo escorts a bit more powerful, hopefully they won't be abused (through a proper rule... ;)) and it gives full SFB squadrons. To be "fair" to the PF races, they want a 6 pk of PFs on the table, they need a casual tender to "escort" the true PF tender... (or play a true Rommie Chickenhawk squad :o)
If we're doing this, ther will be NO solo escorts :)
If anyone is interested in Real Space Control ships, it can be done in a fleet by puttin geither the fighter or the PFs on an Escort and force them to fly together. Not sure if this is a good idea for D2, better prhaps for a campaign if somebody ever puts one together.
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Hexx, I'm considering phaser 1s for the Lyrans but if they get the better phasers, they are going to get the shield reduction the other races get.
Is it worth it?
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Dh, the Lyrans have the worst PF's in the game. Why give them a choice that makes them suck either way? Lyr PF's are a joke.
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No they aren't. Just because they don't have massive crunch like plasma PF's does not mean they suck. Learn some tactics besides running someone down with a tractor up Dizzy. :P
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Both you boners play nice, but you are both right.
Lyran PFs do suck by themselves, but flown correctly like the way Firesoul used to the are absolutely devestating.
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Lyran PFs do suck by themselves, but flown correctly like the way Firesoul used to the are absolutely devestating.
Just thought that bears repeating...
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Lyran PFs do suck by themselves, but flown correctly like the way Firesoul used to the are absolutely devestating.
Just thought that bears repeating...
As long as it's also pointed out that anything the Lyran PF does, another PF does better
with better utility as a bonus.
I'd say try the Ph1's and reduced shields, see what happens.
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This is another case of traditional enemies....
If you improve the Lyrans b/c their drone defense isn't on par to the Feds/Klinks/Kzinti, then you throw them out of whack against the Hydrans.
It is the same situation of the Klink carriers getting drone racks to improve against Feds/Kzinti that screws the Hydrans....
Why does it always seem to be the Hydrans getting shafted?
Isn't it bad enough they get stomped by droners as it is?
Maybe the Fed conjectural PF's should go away but that still leaves the Feds short against all the other races.
And the Lyrans still have to deal with plasma PF's and Kzinit drone tossers... err.. I mean PF's.
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Give the lyr PF's extra tractors, lol... That wont screw the Hydrans and it helps them get on par with the other races.
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This is another case of traditional enemies....
If you improve the Lyrans b/c their drone defense isn't on par to the Feds/Klinks/Kzinti, then you throw them out of whack against the Hydrans.
It is the same situation of the Klink carriers getting drone racks to improve against Feds/Kzinti that screws the Hydrans....
Why does it always seem to be the Hydrans getting shafted?
Isn't it bad enough they get stomped by droners as it is?
Maybe the Fed conjectural PF's should go away but that still leaves the Feds short against all the other races.
And the Lyrans still have to deal with plasma PF's and Kzinit drone tossers... err.. I mean PF's.
Same as Lyrans have to do extra damage to Hydran fighters to compensate said fighters for the fairly rarely seen drone fighters.
Boosting 2 Ph2's on each PF to PH1's shouldn't have a huge imbalancing effect.
If on the next server run (that uses the mod) Lyran ships with PF's start owning every fight they're in then obviously it's too much.
Somehow I doubt it will happen though.
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Same as Lyrans have to do extra damage to Hydran fighters to compensate said fighters for the fairly rarely seen drone fighters.
Boosting 2 Ph2's on each PF to PH1's shouldn't have a huge imbalancing effect.
If on the next server run (that uses the mod) Lyran ships with PF's start owning every fight they're in then obviously it's too much.
Somehow I doubt it will happen though.
Hydran fighters whooping Lyran PF's has rarely been the case, pre or post SFB fighter implementation.
And that is why we are doing testing so things are NOT out of whack once the server starts.
Hell, as it stands now, a Hydran CA ship with 6 or 8 Stingers vs a Lyran CA with 2 pf's usually results in a Hydran CA vs a Lyran CA with ONE pf....
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It is the same situation of the Klink carriers getting drone racks to improve against Feds/Kzinti that screws the Hydrans....
I don't see how anything I've done is ANY worse than having to fight Kzin which happens a lot. the C8VK is no where near as hard on the Hydrans as the Z-CVA and I don't think the smaller carriers are that hot. Keep in mind, the klink fighter don't even get decent unitl 2277. I also don't think with the proposed Carrier/Escort CnC it will be that bad at all.
Why does it always seem to be the Hydrans getting shafted?
Because I'm out to screw the Hydrans as much as I try to screw the Feds, guess you missed the memo :)
Isn't it bad enough they get stomped by droners as it is?
How many D5Ds did will kill on GW2?
Maybe the Fed conjectural PF's should go away but that still leaves the Feds short against all the other races.
I'm thinking about it as with the stricter fleeting rules the "3rd way" might be posible. Need more contemplation before I consider it as Father Ted may damn me to hell
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Give the lyr PF's extra tractors, lol... That wont screw the Hydrans and it helps them get on par with the other races.
This is a good idea, they have none as it except the leader. 1 or 2 might be worth testing.
Speaking of testing, I want to try some stuff tommorow, any chance we can get 6 to show?
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If you gave all the Lyr PF's 1 trac and left their shielding and Ph2's alone, I think they'd be good. Then mb bear would stop his whinning...
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Lyran PFs do suck by themselves, but flown correctly like the way Firesoul used to the are absolutely devestating.
Just thought that bears repeating...
Just copy/pasted that his way....
*FS|IG* :)
*FS|IG* it IS nice to be feared^H^H^H^H^H^Hremembered
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It is the same situation of the Klink carriers getting drone racks to improve against Feds/Kzinti that screws the Hydrans....
I don't see how anything I've done is ANY worse than having to fight Kzin which happens a lot. the C8VK is no where near as hard on the Hydrans as the Z-CVA and I don't think the smaller carriers are that hot. Keep in mind, the klink fighter don't even get decent unitl 2277. I also don't think with the proposed Carrier/Escort CnC it will be that bad at all.
Traditional enemies. Hydrans are not normally expected to fight Kzinti CVAs....
Why does it always seem to be the Hydrans getting shafted?
Because I'm out to screw the Hydrans as much as I try to screw the Feds, guess you missed the memo :)
Hell, even I KNEW that!!
Isn't it bad enough they get stomped by droners as it is?
How many D5Ds did will kill on GW2?
Will? Or you talking about me? Killed lots of them. But it was never in a fighter laden CA or CL. It was H-LB's with 3 fighters that usually provided just an ounce of anti-drone support. (ie a CC vs a CL)
Maybe the Fed conjectural PF's should go away but that still leaves the Feds short against all the other races.
I'm thinking about it as with the stricter fleeting rules the "3rd way" might be posible. Need more contemplation before I consider it as Father Ted may damn me to hell
Probably best, if you are going to make PFT's capital ships with requirements, ALL of them should be that way. Even as much as I like to take the F-NHP solo... it should be a fleet type ship.
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Give the lyr PF's extra tractors, lol... That wont screw the Hydrans and it helps them get on par with the other races.
This is a good idea, they have none as it except the leader. 1 or 2 might be worth testing.
Speaking of testing, I want to try some stuff tommorow, any chance we can get 6 to show?
Can a ship (even a pf) have defensive tractors but no real tractor? Or is that going to be an unexpected consequences?
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Give the lyr PF's extra tractors, lol... That wont screw the Hydrans and it helps them get on par with the other races.
This is a good idea, they have none as it except the leader. 1 or 2 might be worth testing.
Speaking of testing, I want to try some stuff tommorow, any chance we can get 6 to show?
Can a ship (even a pf) have defensive tractors but no real tractor? Or is that going to be an unexpected consequences?
No, but a PF tractoring a ship will just get owned. Point-blank phaser blast from a cruiser kills these PFs.
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Not sure yet, but I may be available tonight....
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I'm sick, need to rest for the rest of the week.
Come monday, it would really be nice to have 6 available to test stuff
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Total Crew in the shiplist needs to always be an even number. Whenever you have an odd number of deck crews or boarding parties and the shiplist comes in contact with 'shipedit' you get a partial crrew of .5 which causes a CTD when the game tries to load. Right now, the SG7 list has no partial crew. But there are some odd number of marine counts in base and max which should be fixed to even numbers. I didnt check to see if deck crews had an odd count, but u might want to DH just to be safe.