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Off Topic => Engineering => Topic started by: Nemesis on June 09, 2007, 08:42:28 pm

Title: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 09, 2007, 08:42:28 pm: Link to full article (http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12026-mars-rover-finds-puddles-on-the-planets-surface.html)

Quote
A new analysis of pictures taken by the exploration rover Opportunity reveals what appear to be small ponds of liquid water on the surface of Mars.

The article includes an image.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Centurus on June 09, 2007, 10:09:24 pm: If it's not liquid water, maybe it's some other liquid substance that wasn't expected to be on Mars, or wasn't known to be. What that is, I don't know.

But this is very interesting, and personally quite fascinating, the possibility of liquid water on the Martian surface. Maybe those ponds might be fissures that allowed possibly underground liquid water to rise to the surface.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Panzergranate on June 13, 2007, 09:52:08 pm: Its actually another nail in the Carbon Gases cause Global Warming coffin.

NASA, Climatologists, Cosmolist, Solaroligists, Radio Hams, etc. have been pointing out for about a decade that the Sun is a lot hotter than normal, hence why global warming is happening. NASA have even pointed out that this increased activity is causing Mars to warm up, hence the water detection.

However the Chicken Littles, Emporer's New Clothes brigade, PC Lobb, Envioro Nazisy and Green fanatics want us to ignore the over whelming evidence that the Carbo Gases thing is bullsh*t and play King Canute with the Sun.

The Sun runs iin 11 year activity cycles. If you do Ham Radio like me you'll know all about these events. Every 800 years it cranks it up a bit. In 1200 to 1400 the UK was so hot that the Scot managed to grow grapes in Scotland!!

Greenlnad was so named by the Vikings because of its rich, abundant forests, which the Mini-Ice Age from 1400 to the late 1800's destoryed.

The "Mars is hotting up too" statement always leaves the Carbon supporters flumuxed.

I want to know how history will see this g;lobal lie in the future and those that purpurtrated it. Sooner or later the Sun'll cool down again and then folks will wake up to it.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Just plain old Punisher on June 14, 2007, 08:22:49 pm: Correlation is not causation.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Panzergranate on June 18, 2007, 01:28:05 pm: So many people have their carreers and reputations gambled on the Carbon theory that they ignore the flaws and pray that it'll come true.

The latest good news is that the sun is expected to cool down considerably by 2240, which will affect us of course. Will mankind be responsible for that as well??
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 18, 2007, 07:03:40 pm: Quote from: Panzergranate on June 13, 2007, 09:52:08 pm
The "Mars is hotting up too" statement always leaves the Carbon supporters flumuxed.

If it is purely the sun then the other planets with atmospheres should be heating up as well. Where is the data of Venus, Jupiter and Saturn (just to name the closest 3). If they are heating up as well then it is clearly a common factor if not then Mars heating up now could be a coincidence. Two similar things happening may be coincidence, 5 is a pattern.

Whether global warming is real or not dealing with pollution now is a good thing to do.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Panzergranate on June 18, 2007, 07:38:48 pm: It concerns me that all the politicians, industry, et all are jumping on this bandwagon to focus public opinion away from PCBs, Dioxins, heavy metals, etc. poluting our world.

It's like a convenient distraction for them, pretending to be concerned about carbon emissions whilst dumping poison elsewhere.

If governments were that serious they'd ban catalytic converters as these increase a vehicle's CO2 emissions!! An engineering fact.

How come we don't hear about the ozone layer anymore?? What's happening to the hole??

The gren lobby has been wrong before, look at the US 2 stroke ban, which has since been proven to be less poluting than the 4 stroke engine. A 2 stroke makes 2% NO2 per volume of fuel combusted compared to the 4 stroke's 48%!! 2 Stroke don't need cat converters and make 3 times the torque/power or a 4 stroke.

Aparently tests put the diesel as beng the dirtiest engine!!

As the president of GM saidm "By 2200 cars will be either DI 2 stroke or something else,

Global Warming is happening just as it did a 1,000 years ago, ending in the 1400's. We survived it then and we'll survive it again, as we always have through out history.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Centurus on June 18, 2007, 08:22:16 pm: Quote from: IKV Nemesis on June 18, 2007, 07:03:40 pm
Quote from: Panzergranate on June 13, 2007, 09:52:08 pm
The "Mars is hotting up too" statement always leaves the Carbon supporters flumuxed.

If it is purely the sun then the other planets with atmospheres should be heating up as well. Where is the data of Venus, Jupiter and Saturn (just to name the closest 3). If they are heating up as well then it is clearly a common factor if not then Mars heating up now could be a coincidence. Two similar things happening may be coincidence, 5 is a pattern.

Whether global warming is real or not dealing with pollution now is a good thing to do.

Agreed. +1
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: FCM_SFHQ_XC on June 18, 2007, 09:06:21 pm: Quote from: Panzergranate on June 18, 2007, 07:38:48 pm
Global Warming is happening just as it did a 1,000 years ago, ending in the 1400's. We survived it then and we'll survive it again, as we always have through out history.
Perhaps, though even if we do.. that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything just because we "might" survive it.. even if we do.. how many people would be sacrificed just because we have the idea "We'll thats bad but we'll survive it"?
As for Mars.. well it really doesn't matter if the sun is heating things up there since the liquid would remain in a non-frozen state if that is some sorta pond "hot spring"(not necessarily a hot spring, but in works in the same general principal) keeping it from freezing
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Just plain old Punisher on June 18, 2007, 09:10:07 pm: Besides, water vapor is responsible for the vast majority of warming on this planet. Water vapor doesn't exist in mars atmoshphere.

Trying to compare the climate of Mars and the Climate of Earth is like apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Panzergranate on June 19, 2007, 05:15:23 pm: The fact is that over here in the UK, for the past decade they've been telling people to use stronger and stronger sun protection cremes than nack in the 1980's because the Sun's UV output is stronger than it used to be in the past.

This was years before the Global Warming thing started.

Now they're using the Carbon Theory thing as an excuse to bring back the spectre of building new Nuclear Powerplants here and in Europe (and Iran!!). The Nuclear Industry desperately wants this unproven theory to be true as well.

This is just one of the bad things that has jumped on the band wagon.

I feel that the Carbon Theory is an attempt to take all our eyes off of the real ball.

There are so many environmental disasters happening in the world that no one reports, the media isn't intrested in and are far more threatening to the world that need to be sorted out.

The Carbon Lie is just a decoy for the environmental vandals out there.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Panzergranate on June 19, 2007, 05:24:23 pm: Oh, and another thing!!

Did Microsoft write the weather modeling software??

Was it run on a ,in order of magnatude, PC, MAC, SUN, Gateway Super Amiga (NASA use these!!) or something amazing??!!

At the moment I'm having a swaering session with the new laptop whch happened to come with VISTA.

VISTA's internet defence system won't let me log into HOTMAIL as it reckons that the site has had its security licenec revoked!!

It does once in a blue moon (after about a thousand attempts) but will then crash out again and up comes the message, "This site's security lcertificate has been revoked".

Great isn't it.... Microsoft software refusing to let me into a Microsoft site!!

As per usual VISTA help was designed by a Pakled software engineer!! (No change from all other WINDOWS there then!!)

Why oh why didn't I buy a MAC or Sun this time around??!!
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Lieutenant_Q on June 22, 2007, 10:54:03 am: I still remember the "Global Cooling" hysteria that was all the rage in the scientific circles in the late 70s early 80s. If we were in a "cooling" cycle back then, how did we suddenly get to a "Global Warming" cycle?

All this is is an attempt to bring Government regulation deeper into the private sector. What will we become? Socialists? or worse...?
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 22, 2007, 06:46:01 pm: I've read books on archeology and paleontology for as long as I can remember. Some of the books were very old and climate scientists have been changing their minds about every 20 years as to whether we are heating up or cooling down. That is why I haven't said anything pro or con on the topic of global warming.

Whether there is global warming or not pollution needs to be restricted.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Panzergranate on June 23, 2007, 06:34:35 am: Global warming is a fact!!

It's happened before in human written history and will happen again, along with periods of global cooling.

The human race contributes between 0.4 to 1% of the planet's total carbon emissions. This is a fact. The sea produces 98% of the CO2 emissions because that is where most of the planet's life exists. Another fact. The sun heats the sea up, life flourishes and produces more CO2. A fact once again. When the sun isn't so hot as during the 150 year long mini ice age, life isn't doing so well in the sea nad the CO2 levels drop.

And here's the interesting bit, the CO2 levels at that time are stored in the polar ice. And these ice core samples show that during the last global warming episode from 800 AD to 1400 AD with peak warming of +6 degrees C more than we have now from 1200 to 1400 AD, had the planets CO2 levels higher than we have now!!

Strange that Medieval Man didn't have heavy industry, automobiles, aircraft, etc. to "cause" this.

And the geoligists say that there was no extra volcanic activity at the time to cause this either.

The Chicken Littles need to seriously read the history books more and stop trying to spoil everyoones lives.

The world needs to except that global warming is a natural process over which we have no control, just like a tornado, and start planning how to help those most affected by it. The money would be better spent than wasted on these useless junkets.

We can't stop global warming no more than King Canute could stop the tide. All we can do is prepare for it, endure it and wait for it to finish. Maybe even take advantage of it with agriculture on Greenland and Spitzbergen again.

As for socialism, er the Federation is socialist according to what Picard tells the guy from the cryosat in a TNG episode.

Don't mix up socialism with communism, they are very different things.

In the Federation they have no money, people are encouraged and assisted to advance themselves to there best abilities, if you need food you just go to a food dispenser, free medicare, free education, etc. These are all socialist things.

No one is held down or held back from acheivement because they're underpriveldged or poor.

Also Picard points out that there are no corporations after the UN banned them for being the primary cause behind WW3!! They also banned lawyers which obviously made the planet a better place!!

The Federation is socialist in principle and its goals!!
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: FCM_SFHQ_XC on June 23, 2007, 11:25:40 am: Perhaps, or perhaps not, but still even if so... at least there wasnt any additional pollution from man made devices back then like there are today. At least back then you didnt have to wake up in the morning, go for a walk, and smell the fresh smog of cities nearby and perhaps cough for a bit, like you have to today(especially on one of those code red smog alert days).
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 23, 2007, 12:11:32 pm: Quote from: Capt_SFHQ_XC on June 23, 2007, 11:25:40 am
Perhaps, or perhaps not, but still even if so... at least there wasnt any additional pollution from man made devices back then like there are today. At least back then you didnt have to wake up in the morning, go for a walk, and smell the fresh smog of cities nearby and perhaps cough for a bit, like you have to today(especially on one of those code red smog alert days).

Which is why I get so annoyed with some of the "global warming isn't occurring or is natural" crowd who seem to assume that therefore we should ignore pollution. Pollution is a problem even without global warming.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Sirgod on June 23, 2007, 12:59:29 pm: Nem, I agree with you once again. Personaly I think this Global warming thing is a farce, but Pollution affects everyone. Everyone can do something to help on that, From Recycling, to better cooking methods. I'm a big proponent of Conservation, but I just don't buy into the global warming arguement, with respect to those who do, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Stephen
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: FCM_SFHQ_XC on June 23, 2007, 01:16:33 pm: +1
..
Yes, definetly, its pollution thats the problem. I could care less if global warming is disproved or proven or remains a theory. I'd prefer it where I wont have to be in the future carrying around a oxygen tank just to walk outside without pollution making it impossible for anyone to breath.
So if Global Warming really is 99% natural over human acclerated, then at least we can all breath better while being hot. If it is not even real then at least we wont be having so many medical emergencies related to all the medical problems caused by too much pollution. If Global Warming is true and mostly caused by humans, then kill the pollution and global warming stablizes.

So nomatter if Global Warming is real, fake, human caused, natural, mixed, or completly false to the infinite power, pollution must go.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Sirgod on June 23, 2007, 01:25:12 pm: Right back at ya SFHQ. I'm constantly looking for way's to have a cleaner Ranch. Granted, Some things there is just no answer for, Have to have that fuel burning truck , as there isn't anything out there to handle my needs. Do a monthly Safe burn, etc. But If I could come up with a way for that, I'd do it.

Stephen
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 23, 2007, 01:28:26 pm: Quote from: Stephen NCC -73070 on June 23, 2007, 12:59:29 pm
but I just don't buy into the global warming arguement, with respect to those who do, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Stephen

I don't buy into either side because the historical flip flopping form cooling to warming and back by reputable climatologists shows that the experts haven't reached consensus yet though some claim otherwise. As a non expert I don't even have close to the information to make a judgment. Neither side has conclusive evidence and now it has become a political issue and that clouds the science involved. Until it stops being political and becomes science again there is no chance that it will be resolved based on the merits of the data.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 23, 2007, 01:51:54 pm: Quote from: Panzergranate on June 23, 2007, 06:34:35 am

The human race contributes between 0.4 to 1% of the planet's total carbon emissions. This is a fact.

Sometimes a minor addition or subtraction can upset a precarious balance. An avalanche can start because one stone moves. Ever step up to a river bank and have it collapse under you (I have)? It was stable until that extra weight arrived. It might have stayed so for hundreds of years and then your weight changed the balance.

"Give me place to stand and a lever long enough and I will move the world" is a classic quote that illustrates the principle that small things can have big effects.

Quote from: Panzergranate on June 23, 2007, 06:34:35 am

The sea produces 98% of the CO2 emissions because that is where most of the planet's life exists

And how much of the CO2 is then taken up by oceanic plants?

Quote from: Panzergranate on June 23, 2007, 06:34:35 am

nother fact. The sun heats the sea up, life flourishes and produces more CO2

Ocean plants flourish and take in the CO2 as well.

Quote from: Panzergranate on June 23, 2007, 06:34:35 am

The world needs to except that global warming is a natural process over which we have no control, just like a tornado,

Forest fires are mostly natural but humans can cause them as well. It can be extremely difficult to tell which was the source in any given fire as the evidence is often consumed. Humans can also often stop or even direct them.

Tornadoes and hurricanes are driven by heat it might become possible in the future to manipulate the heat patterns and direct, stop or even create them. Research has been done along these lines and not yet proven it to be impossible.

Global warming may be the same. If it exists maybe this time we caused it or maybe it would have happened anyway.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Just plain old Punisher on June 23, 2007, 02:55:21 pm: The sea also produces most of our oxygen via blue green alge.

That alge is dying off at an alarming rate because mankind uses the worlds oceans as a toilet.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Sirgod on June 23, 2007, 03:00:47 pm: Quote from: Punisher NCC-2000 on June 23, 2007, 02:55:21 pm
The sea also produces most of our oxygen via blue green alge.

That alge is dying off at an alarming rate because mankind uses the worlds oceans as a toilet.

<snikers> Not me, I'm in a land locked state. ;)

Stephen
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Just plain old Punisher on June 23, 2007, 03:05:02 pm: Quote from: Stephen NCC -73070 on June 23, 2007, 03:00:47 pm
Quote from: Punisher NCC-2000 on June 23, 2007, 02:55:21 pm
The sea also produces most of our oxygen via blue green alge.

That alge is dying off at an alarming rate because mankind uses the worlds oceans as a toilet.

<snikers> Not me, I'm in a land locked state. ;)

Stephen

Yea, but all the runoff from your state goes into rivers which in turn empty into other rivers which in turn all empty into the sea.

Or, in other words, crap flows downhill =)
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Sirgod on June 23, 2007, 03:14:09 pm: Not trying to Fact check you here, But I understand from well educated Texans, that Oklahoma Sucks, and that's why Texas hasn't fell into the ocean. :D

Seriously That is a good point. Human waste is Bio Degradable though, and Even most toilet papers are. Heck I've used myself Fecal matter from the cows, to grow more plants, veggies, etc.

Stephen
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Just plain old Punisher on June 23, 2007, 03:26:11 pm: Quote from: Stephen NCC -73070 on June 23, 2007, 03:14:09 pm
Not trying to Fact check you here, But I understand from well educated Texans, that Oklahoma Sucks, and that's why Texas hasn't fell into the ocean. :D

Seriously That is a good point. Human waste is Bio Degradable though, and Even most toilet papers are. Heck I've used myself Fecal matter from the cows, to grow more plants, veggies, etc.

Stephen

Nope sorry, can't get away from it.

To be blunt, it's all your fault. Enviornmental damage, pollution, barbara stiesand.

All you.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Sirgod on June 23, 2007, 03:30:44 pm: Barbara Striestand... You Bastard. :D

Stephen
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 23, 2007, 09:55:27 pm: Road salt, excessive pesticides and herbicides. Don't forget all the damage done by DDT. Thats ignoring industrial waste and accidental toxic spills. A one drum spill where I work once left the local river foaming.

All stuff that we really need to get better about whether there is global warming or not. Whether we affect global warming or not. Just for our own long term health and survival as a species.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Panzergranate on June 25, 2007, 12:31:21 pm: That's my arguement!!

The governments, industrialists, poluterss, etc. are happy to jump onto the CO2 bandwagon as it is a goo distraction from the real and proven dangers to our world.

Remember CFCs, N2O, Ozone, DDT, Toxic waste, landfill, deforestation, acid rain, Dioxins, waste oil, etc.

Never hear a peep out of the media or governments about these nowadays do you. They're still there but the CO2 decoy is helping to focus joe public's attention away from them.

Ironically if you fit a Cat Converter onto a 4 stroke engine to stop harmful low level haelth hazard smog (2 strokes don't make N2O so don't need them!!), you more than double the engine's CO2 emissions!!

A kind of irony there!!

What ever happened to the hole in the Ozone Layer over the South Pole?? Anyone hear anything new about that?? The media soon lost interest with that.

Some where along the line the media has stopped people from reasoning.

Over here in the UK we have newspapers for people who need to be told what to believe!! usually what Rupert Murdock wants them to believe!!

We are going through an anti-renaisance, an age of unreasoning where people just accept what they are told to believe and those that can still reason or dare to are attacked.

It's a sad age we live in.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 25, 2007, 07:21:11 pm: Quote
Remember CFCs, N2O, Ozone, DDT, Toxic waste, landfill, deforestation, acid rain, Dioxins, waste oil, etc.

Some of that is being addressed.

CFCs - effectively outlawed in much of the world. Replaced with more benign direct substitute. That substitute is now being phased out for something even more benign. Japan and China are a problem. Japan made upgrading away from CFCs cheaper by selling the old CFC making and using equipment to China. China "modernized" by buying it. Rather defeated the purpose of Japan phasing out CFCs.

Ozone - Depletion caused by CFCs. Still being monitored. Seems to be getting better slowly.

DDT - Outlawed in most of the world.

Toxic waste - growing recycling systems.

Deforestation - on going problem. Attempts at reforesting with inconsistent results as usually the logging companies plant what is cheap not what was there before.

Dioxins and PCBs - restrictions compared to the old days but still needs to improve

Waste oils - some recycling and some burned to generate power.
Title: Re: Pictures of surface water on Mars?
Post by: Nemesis on June 25, 2007, 07:30:30 pm: Global Warming and Mars - Positive Feedback
[/color]

If Mars is being warmed by a hotter sun these days it may have effects that most people don't expect. It is believed that the rocks and soil of Mars perhaps to a depth as great as 1 kilometer contain a great deal of absorbed CO₂. As the rocks and soil warm some of that CO₂ will be released. Released CO₂ will enhance the greenhouse effect causing higher temperatures and more released CO₂. The more CO₂ that is released the higher the temperature. The higher the temperature the more CO₂ is released. Positive feedback.

It could result in a Mars with sufficient air (though unbreathable) to allow much easier exploration in addition to temperatures and pressures sufficient to allow liquid water on the surface. A thicker air would allow more efficient use of air braking for space craft, which means less fuel. If water is deep enough over a wide area water landings become possible. Easily available water would allow easy generation of fuel for a return flight. All of which means bigger cheaper probes and easier manned exploration.

A thick enough atmosphere would allow for as little as just a face mask and oxygen tank for breathing with little or no other protection. No space suits. Cheaper lighter more reliable. Thicker air also means more protection from solar radiation.